Bingo. Same goes for bimetal jackets
Steel Cased Ammo
- Thread starter John in B.C.
- Start date
I would like to share my 2 cents on the subject and Aspect, you'll find my intro similar to yours 
As a mechanical engineer working for a major ammunition manufacturer, here are my toughts about 1) steel cartridge cases vs extractor wear and 2) Copper clad steel bullet jackets:
Steel Cartridge cases:
For a black rifle shooter (i.e. excluding high power target rifles), wearing out of the extractor based on cartridge case material is somewhat irrelevant. To concure with Aspect, extractors are going to fail due to fatigue over surface abrasion from the cartridge case rim. However, I have seen the opposite (extractor failure due to abrasion) but not with the kind of weapon system and amunition the average shooter can expect to acquire.
Copper clad steel bullet jackets:
Copper clad steel jackets are used mainly to maintain structural integrity of tracer bullets. It is comon practice for NATO ammunition manufacturers to use them with tracers. For the same weight of a ''ball'' bullet, it's tracer counterpart is going to be longer (obviously at the bearing length). A longer bearing length translates to higher stresses (torsion, compressive, shear stresses) in the bullet's jacket. Increased stress makes tracer bullets prone to stripping (which is hazardous for bystandards on the battle field). Many 5.56 and 7.62mm Tracer bullets are already using copper clad steel jackets for that reason. I have seen two types of copper clad steel cups from which jackets are drawn, one has a thick layer of copper on the outside while the other is thinner (way thinner). I do not know about western countries practices over steel jacketed bullets (where used, caliber and bullet type) but since copper cladding thickness can vary from one ammunition manufacturer to the other (and probably from lot to lot) I would either stay away from them or section some bullets of the ammo on hand to measure copper cladding jacket thickness and compare with the barrel's groove dimension. Seems like a cool experiment to do!
Frank
As a mechanical engineer working for a major ammunition manufacturer, here are my toughts about 1) steel cartridge cases vs extractor wear and 2) Copper clad steel bullet jackets:
Steel Cartridge cases:
For a black rifle shooter (i.e. excluding high power target rifles), wearing out of the extractor based on cartridge case material is somewhat irrelevant. To concure with Aspect, extractors are going to fail due to fatigue over surface abrasion from the cartridge case rim. However, I have seen the opposite (extractor failure due to abrasion) but not with the kind of weapon system and amunition the average shooter can expect to acquire
.Copper clad steel bullet jackets:
Copper clad steel jackets are used mainly to maintain structural integrity of tracer bullets. It is comon practice for NATO ammunition manufacturers to use them with tracers. For the same weight of a ''ball'' bullet, it's tracer counterpart is going to be longer (obviously at the bearing length). A longer bearing length translates to higher stresses (torsion, compressive, shear stresses) in the bullet's jacket. Increased stress makes tracer bullets prone to stripping (which is hazardous for bystandards on the battle field). Many 5.56 and 7.62mm Tracer bullets are already using copper clad steel jackets for that reason. I have seen two types of copper clad steel cups from which jackets are drawn, one has a thick layer of copper on the outside while the other is thinner (way thinner). I do not know about western countries practices over steel jacketed bullets (where used, caliber and bullet type) but since copper cladding thickness can vary from one ammunition manufacturer to the other (and probably from lot to lot) I would either stay away from them or section some bullets of the ammo on hand to measure copper cladding jacket thickness and compare with the barrel's groove dimension. Seems like a cool experiment to do!
Frank
I am sorry I got long winded guys. I was just trying to answer the OP question. My last post listed some possible issues with this ammo. I guess I should have just posted that first instead of getting into a long winded debate. Hey, its better then watching TV. lol. I will try to keep it more concise next time. Good shooting guys
cptseawolf
CGN Regular
- Location
- Saskatchewan
if the copper wore thru on bimetal bullets, then why doesnt my SKS or my buddies CZ that we go out and shoot HUNDREDS of rounds in just a hour or so at the range have a smooth bore.
Im sure there are tonnes of CZ's that have shot cases upon cases of copper jacketed steel surplus rounds with corrosive primers that have lots and lots of barrel left.
plus shooting ammo like surplus and MFS allows people to shoot more and get out to the range. so really - i think that out weighs getting expensive match grade factory .223 and only being able to afford to shoot every now and then.
Just my 2 cents.
Im sure there are tonnes of CZ's that have shot cases upon cases of copper jacketed steel surplus rounds with corrosive primers that have lots and lots of barrel left.
plus shooting ammo like surplus and MFS allows people to shoot more and get out to the range. so really - i think that out weighs getting expensive match grade factory .223 and only being able to afford to shoot every now and then.
Just my 2 cents.
If both of you guys say it's fine, as far as I'm concerned, it's fine.
Guys with community college classes in metallurgy notwithstanding.
Dont be a #### man. I was just trying to help. I did say I shoot it in my surplus rifles. The point is there are more risks with it then normal brass cased, copper jacketed lead ammo. O, and the college I went to, last I heard, has one of the top aerospace manufacturing courses in Canada.
No kidding...maybe you should enroll in it.
Not to be a ####, of course, but I just don't have a ton of sympathy for guys who "try to help" by posting incorrect information.
Thankfully in this thread there were a couple of guys who were able to set the record straight for anybody else wondering about this issue.
Not to be a ####, of course, but I just don't have a ton of sympathy for guys who "try to help" by posting incorrect information.
Thankfully in this thread there were a couple of guys who were able to set the record straight for anybody else wondering about this issue.
Wear on the extractor aside, I would be concerned that over time you might get some build up from poorly laquered cases. Some tighter chambers might have higher pressures as a result. I think alot of the chicom stuff gets away with heavy laquer as their chambers are abit sloppier. That said if the coating used on the case was robust enough it would probably not be a problem. The cases arent powder coated either.
Ive shot steel off and on. But buyer beware in some guns. SKS..no problems there.
Ive shot steel off and on. But buyer beware in some guns. SKS..no problems there.
Did you even read a the whole thread? There are definitely more risks with it. I dont even know why I waste my time.
Some manufactures dont care and it does not void their warranty... Hell, I once contacted Daniel Defense before I ever started shooting steel and asked if it would work and if it would void my warranty... I was told by a rep that yes it would work (and if it didn't I should send it back), and that it would NOT void my warranty.
Now, I will admit... In some cases (with some company's)... It does void their warranty... Most of the time though, You'll probably find they wont specifically recommend it... But, it that it doesn't void their warranty.
- Location
- Prince George B.C.
Well thanks for the input guys.
I put another 50-60 rounds through it Sunday with no ammo issues. Accuracy was very good and the bullets all went bang like they should.
John
I put another 50-60 rounds through it Sunday with no ammo issues. Accuracy was very good and the bullets all went bang like they should.
John
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
Steel-jacketed solids were the norm in magnum rifles used in Africa. In fact, I believe that Woodleigh and Hornady still use steel-jacketed solids.
If it's safe to shoot through a Purdey Double rifle that costs $150K or a Rigby bolt gun that runs $40K then you're safe to use it in a $1500 AR.
Because he hasn't got a clue what he's talking about, from the "extractor wear" issue to the "sparks out of the barrel" thing...it serves only to confuse people looking for an actual answer to the question.
When people don't have reliable information on a subject they should be asking questions, not giving advice. At most, they should be saying something like, "I don't know if it's an issue, but my concerns are that what look like sparks are coming out of the barrel, and I don't know if that's a problem or what's going on there."
Instead we get a guy who doesn't know what he's talking about, arguing.
Threads like this are not about opinion, they're about information. A lot of people can't tell the difference between their opinions, and actual information.
So thankfully there is a fair amount of actual information in this thread. The reason I am hard on guys like Tachead is that some new guy is going to search "steel cased ammo" before firing it in his gun, find this thread, and not know enough to be able to tell who knows the subject and who doesn't.
It's pure luck that we got a couple of guys with massive credentials to step up and explain the reality of the situation, so hopefully anybody who stumbles across this thread down the road will not get confused by the argument.
- Location
- Georgetown Ontario
I'm curious as to why you would feel the need to clean a gun after firing 50 rounds of corrosive? I shoot hundreds of corrosive rounds at a time and don't clean until I get home.
And if you shoot the hell out of your guns like you say, your eventually are going to wear/break a part no matter how well you look after them or what you shoot out of them. Would you really replace the whole gun if you broke an extractor or woreout a barrel on your AR? Stating you would have to replace your guns all the time from shooting steelcase/jacket is just silly! Sorry I do appreciate your opinion but from my experience just don't agree with it.
I meant if you only shot 50 rounds of corrosive you would still have to do a full disassembly and cleaning when you got home. I shoot hundreds of rounds in my SKS and only clean when I get home as well. I didnt mean you would have to replace your gun all the time. I meant that shooting steel case/steel jacket could cause more wear in turn wearing your guns out faster. Thats all. And thats fine if you dont agree with it. Do whatever you want with you firearms. I just dont shoot it in my high end ones because of the risks I outlined.
Steel is a metal with a huge range of hardness, the stuff used for casings and bullets is pretty close to brass for hardness so wear issues are more imagined then reality. I've run cheap ammo in expensive guns with no regrets who cares. A better quality gun should require less maint IMHO or you're wasting ur money.
Man, did you even read the whole thread? FrankCJ7, one of the people you are talking about, even said there were concerns with some of the steel jacket ammo if the copper isnt applied thick enough. And, why is your opinion more right then mine? I did say a couple of times that I dont know for sure about the sparks but, I have never seen any other ammo other then MFS do it so I was concerned. Thats like exactly what you just said. So you know for sure their are no issues with steel cased/steel jacketed ammo then? Man, you are doing the very thing you are claiming I was, which I am not. Your saying your opinion is gospel. Even after one of the self proclaimed engineers said there are concerns with the steel jacketed stuff if the coating is applied too thin. Maybe you should think before you post. Then you wont embarass yourself by doing the very thing your preaching to others not to do.
There are other issues as well though. Like the fact that a lot of this ammo is made in other countries that might not have the same level of quality control or saftey as here, some manufactured will void warrenty if used exc. Anyway, Im done with this thread. Shoot it as you see fit.
Defective ammo is defective ammo...always a problem, whether steel cased or no, obviously.
