Old shotgun safe to shoot?

You will need to make sure of the chamber length on your new shotty. If it is 2.5" then you can not shoot anything but 2.5" shotgun shells. You are probably best to stick with target loads as well as they will not create the same pressures as other modern loads. In general Shotgun shells do not create really high pressures but if your using a shell that is too long for the chamber it can create pressures that could cause serious issues with your shotgun.

Just to be clear, I am not a gunsmith and you would be best to consult with one first to be sure of all the details of your SXS.

Also, I am not sure the year of your particular gun, but a lot of older shotguns you would be best to only shoot lead shot and avoid steel as you have pointed out.

Good luck and enjoy your new gun! I love the old SXS Shotguns!!!! :D
 
First , what kind of barrels are on it. Do they say fine twist steel or are they fluid steel. Either way, your friend's shotgun would have been made before 1930. Most guns of that era are not designed to shoot the pressures of modern shells today, although some people do. Also, it could have short chambers. The overall condition of the gun should be checked out as well as chambers measured. If safe, the gun can be used with modern low pressure loadas. There is a difference between low pressure and low brass. Low brass still has high pressures. I would not shoot regular high pressure shells through it but it is your friend's limbs so he can do as he sees fit.
 
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Cammy7s said:
You will need to make sure of the chamber length on your new shotty. If it is 2.5" then you can not shoot anything but 2.5" shotgun shells. You are probably best to stick with target loads as well as they will not create the same pressures as other modern loads. In general Shotgun shells do not create really high pressures but if your using a shell that is too long for the chamber it can create pressures that could cause serious issues with your shotgun.

Just to be clear, I am not a gunsmith and you would be best to consult with one first to be sure of all the details of your SXS.

Also, I am not sure the year of your particular gun, but a lot of older shotguns you would be best to only shoot lead shot and avoid steel as you have pointed out.

Good luck and enjoy your new gun! I love the old SXS Shotguns!!!! :D
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Actually from research I have done lately into old double barrels, I believe the above info is just the opposite. Many are claiming that shooting a 2 3/4" shell in a 2 1/2" chamber does not raise the pressures much at all and studies have been done to prove it. That is because the 2 3/4" shells themselves are 2 1/2" or less before firing, plus there is room for expansion into the forcing cones. That doesn't mean to use shells that are too long on a regular basis, although some do, but it does explain why people have gotten away with using longer shells in a short chamber. Also, modern off the shelf target loads can still have high pressures, unless you are doing your own reloading. If the gun is safe to shoot, you can buy low pressure loads, although not easy to find in many areas.
 
One of the more basic bits in the firearms training books was related to shotgun chamber lengths and length of the casings put into them. The point being that the casing must still be of less length when folded open than the chamber BEFORE you get to the forcing cone. If you stick a 2 3/4 shell into a 2 1/2 inch chamber sure there's a little extra length so the 2 3/4 fits. But when the end folds open it lays on the forcing cone and could result in the actual effective opening at the end of the opening of the crimp portion being smaller than intended and pushing up the pressures.

So they can "claim" all they want. But if the chamber isn't long enough to allow the end crimp to lay open to a diameter of at least the bore size all the way to the end of the crimp then you're playing with fire.
 
There has been extensive discussion about firing longer shells in short chambers on shotgun world and doublegunshop forum. Apparently more than one study (not hearsay) has shown that pressures did not increase drastically nor anywhere near to the point of causing damage or blowing up a gun when using a longer shell in a short chamber. It is a known fact that countless shooters over the years stuck the newest longer shells in their old guns when they could no longer find the shorter shells. Those guns are still being fired today. Now we are talking like a 2 3/4" in a 2 1/2" chamber, not a 3" in a 2 1/2" chamber. And also it depends on the guns condition. If the gun is severely pitted or lose, then it is dangerous to start with with any shell. Now I don't shoot longer shells in a short chamber and I don't encourage it. I am just saying that I was quite surprised by the information I found out because I also wondered why people were getting away with shooting longer shells in their old guns. The information was quite interesting. One doesn't have to believe it but if you search the net you will find documentation/information regarding this issue. It would explain why people have been getting away with it for years.
 
gunsaholic said:
Actually from research I have done lately into old double barrels, I believe the above info is just the opposite. Many are claiming that shooting a 2 3/4" shell in a 2 1/2" chamber does not raise the pressures much at all and studies have been done to prove it. That is because the 2 3/4" shells themselves are 2 1/2" or less before firing, plus there is room for expansion into the forcing cones. That doesn't mean to use shells that are too long on a regular basis, although some do, but it does explain why people have gotten away with using longer shells in a short chamber. Also, modern off the shelf target loads can still have high pressures, unless you are doing your own reloading. If the gun is safe to shoot, you can buy low pressure loads, although not easy to find in many areas.
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I said shooting the longer shells could cause serious issues not that it couldn't be done. If you are saying there is no risk of this I would be very sceptical of your claims. Furthermore, unless all of the studies you are speaking of were intended for the OP's gun I would never recomend what you are suggesting without having a licensed gunsmith have a look first.
 
Dumoulin was one of the better Belgian makers. Actually there are a bunch of different Dumoulin companies over the years - what does your shotgun say for manufacturer? Is it F. Dumoulin, or E. Dumoulin, or something else?

Offhand I'd say if the barrels are fluid steel (not "twist" or "damascus") then it will most likely be safe to shoot the proper size shells in it. If you're not sure, get somebody who knows look at it. Try a gunsmith in your area.
 
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Win/64 said:
Why not just ask Anthony at TradeEx?
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I send him an email yesterday and i'm waiting for the reply. I just tought i can also ask some knowlegable folks here while i'm waiting. I hope he will be able to shoot modern cartridges because he got a huge stack of vintage cartriges. Canadian tires, ace, etc... Some of them have a price tag on them: 3,33$ for a box of 12ga, wow!
 
Cammy7s said:
I said shooting the longer shells could cause serious issues not that it couldn't be done. If you are saying there is no risk of this I would be very sceptical of your claims. Furthermore, unless all of the studies you are speaking of were intended for the OP's gun I would never recomend what you are suggesting without having a licensed gunsmith have a look first.
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First, if you read my post I have said from the start that the gun should be checked out before any shell is fired through it. Could be it isn't fit for anything although I am sure he would have been told that from tradeex. Second ,I said I don't shoot longer shells in a short chamber and I also said I don't recommend it. I was pointing out from the other post that longer shells in a short chamber do not increase the pressures near as much as everyone first thought. It doesn't matter that you don't believe me, but you are also saying that engineers, gunsmiths and gun connoisseurs on these sites are full of baloney. They have the proof to back up what they are saying. You tell me why thousands have shot longer shells in short chambers without anything happening. Just lucky--I don't think so. You can go back on discussions on this forum and find cases where people claim to shoot longer shells all the time. Same as the old wives tale about damascus barrel guns immediately became no good and dangerous as soon as smokeless powder came out. Yet thousands continue to use them with proper loads. In fact, more shooters are putting them into use every year. Do you think there weren't thousands, if not millions of shooters who didn't use their old damascus guns when they couldn't afford to buy a new one? And they didn't even care how strong a load they were using, they just stuck them in. Of course if a gun was not or is not safe is a totally different matter. Any gun can blow apart from abuse and neglect. In fact, anything I have read or seen on this lately has been to do with new guns blowing up and most of the time from an obstruction causing higher pressure, not the load itself. And as far as the op's gun, I didn't say use longer shells in it. Like I said, he should have it checked out before even using it.
 
Where to begin???

Firstly, the vast majority of SxS's manufactured before WW1 were chambered in 2 1/2". Note that I said the majority. I won't comment on any "studies" that have shown that using 2 3/4" shells in 2 1/2" chambered guns don't raise the pressures as much as some people thought. I have no information on how those studies were conducted. But I do have personal experience. When I first started shooting shotguns, I was using 2 3/4" shells in a 2 9/16ths chambered Winchester 1897. The gun fired the shells without major damage. Shot patterns and terminal velocities appeared relatively normal. However, no doubt about it, pressures were noticeably increased, as evidenced by the significant increase in felt recoil. Also, the gun began to work itself loose at the take-down assembly and an offset adjustment collar had to be purchased to bring it back to normal tolerances. I would not recommend that anyone ever knowingly use shells that are longer than the chambering calls for.

Damascus barrels and/or "twist" barrels are every bit as strong and serviceable as are fluid steel barrels. Damascus barrels are still made today by the traditional methods. They have fallen out of favour because they are expensive due to the high labour requirement to build them, not because they're inferior in any way. Today, they are found almost exclusively on the finest shotguns that sell for $80K or more. They suffer a poor reputation only because most shooters' experience with them is limited to 100 yr old guns from an era when they were commonplace. Guns from that era are often unsafe (equally whether damascus or fluid steel) because black powder is highly corrosive and guns weren't always cleaned promptly after every use. Conversely, guns that were well maintained can be perfectly safe after more than 100 years of use, damascus or otherwise.

More importantly, guns are tested to ensure that they are free of material or workmanship deficiencies. This is known as "proof" testing. Most old guns were proofed only for black powder. The process involves using a "proof load" that generates much higher pressures than conventional loads of the same type (black powder or nitro). The guns are fired remotely for safety. If a gun was not proofed for nitro, it doesn't mean the gun wouldn't pass proof for nitro, only that it hasn't been tested.

Commercial black powder shells generated somewhere in the 4,000 to 9,000 psi range. Nitro shells typically generate 10,000 or more psi. There are shells available that are made with nitro powders, but designed to generate in the 6,000 to 8,500 psi range. Because these are intended to be used in BP-proofed guns, they're 2 1/2" shells. I have sourced Gamebore shells of this type through Kent in Canada. I have nothing but good things to say about them, they're terrific.

These pressure ranges are general guidelines for commercial shells. It is possible to generate in excess of 80,000 psi with either type of gunpowder.

Only lead or lead substitutes should be used in older guns. Guns made after 1940 can be used with steel shot, if the chokes are opened up to modified or less choke constriction. To the best of my experience, you'll never find a 2 1/2" shell with steel shot.

In the final analysis, many older guns are as good as, if not superior to, guns that are available today. But, one should know what the potential issues are and know how to avoid them. It isn't rational to fear damascus barrels, but condition is paramount with any gun.

If you're going to shoot vintage guns, get your facts straight and then enjoy safe, trouble-free shooting. When in doubt, consult with someone knowledgeable on the subject.
 
FAQMAT said:
One of my freind bought this shotgun last week.
http://www.shop.tradeexcanada.com/content/14369-fdumoulin-12ga-sxs-sold

Today i was surfing the web, looking to get more info on the history of this model of gun and find that this kind of old shotgun is not safe to fire modern cartridges, is this true? I know that steel shot is a big no-no. But what about regular lead shot?
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There is no general reason why this gun should be unsafe but there may be a reason specific to the gun. Any older gun can benefit from a going over by a competent gunsmith to determine whether it is sound.

Somewhere on the gun's barrel or action flats there may be chamber dimensions. Look for four numbers separated by a slash. The first number is gauge the second is the chamber length in millimeters. 12/70 would be a 12 gauge gun with a 70mm chamber or 2-3/4".

As for shooting 2-3/4" shell in a 2-1/2" chamber, I'm aware of some of the studies referred to in earlier posts and they haven't convinced me that it is an intelligent practice. Variations in forcing cone construction (often very short in older guns), guns that have been bored out to remove pitting and a variety of other potential issues that can crop up in older guns lead me to conclude that deliberately shooting 2-3/4" shells in a 2-1/2" chamber is foolish at the very least. I'd say the same about shooting a 3" shell in a modern gun with a 2-3/4" chamber no matter how long the forcing cones were.

One of the risks of older guns is that you don't know where they've been, what's been done too them and by whom. I've seen many guns marked as 2-1/2" but whose chambers were lengthened to 2-3/4" at some point. The problem here, particularly on a light sxs, is that lengthening the chambers may reduce the barrel wall thickness to below acceptable minimums.
 
Maybe the OP could post some pic's of the barrel flats and water table of the gun. Proof marks can be very helpful.
 
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Straightshooter et al:

With regards to the use of Gamebore 2 1/2 inch Pure Gold shells in barrels which have been proven only for black powder, it is not recommended. While the Pure Gold shells produce pressure in the region of 8000 psi, they produce that pressure very quickly. Black powder shells are much slower burning by comparison. The short, sharp shock produced by the nitro shell is terra incognita for black powder barrels, user beware!

In regards to newly produced Damascus barrels, could you please provide a link to a manufacturer? I am aware of a Swedish firm that produces a modern steel with a Damascus - like finish to it, but I know of no currently produced barrels made in the traditional fashion. I would be very interested in knowing of a maker who does.

As to the discussion about shooting 2 3/4" shells in 2 1/2" chambers, there was a series of articles by Sherman Bell in the Double Gun Journal where he did exactly that with a piezo strain gauge attached to the gun. Pressure increases observed were in the range of 1,000 to 1,200 psi IIRC. As was correctly observed, the additional pressure does not blow up steel barrels, but manifests itself in other ways. Shooting a modern 11,000 psi 2 3/4" load out of a black powder barrel with a 2 1/2" chamber could easily produce more exciting results. Since 2 1/2" shells are reasonably easy to obtain or hand load, I see no reason to shoot long shells in short chambers.


Sharptail
 
Here's what i do - I have an old 24 gauge with Damascus barrel and 2 1/2 in. chambers. I take a new 20 gau. shell and cut it around the crimp. I dump the shot, shot cup and powder out. I reload with BP (about 28 gr. by volume), replace the shot cup with wads and shot (lead only, and I only put about 75% of the shot back in), then I put an overshot wad, and re-crimp the shell using the crimp component of a Lee handloader. Been doing it for years, with no issues. Actually, the shell alone itself is probably enough to take the pressure of that small load of powder. Now, I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, a gunsmith or an authority on reloading, bit this setup has gotten me a ton of grouse, and I get to use an old toy.
 
Sharptail said:
Straightshooter et al:

With regards to the use of Gamebore 2 1/2 inch Pure Gold shells in barrels which have been proven only for black powder, it is not recommended. While the Pure Gold shells produce pressure in the region of 8000 psi, they produce that pressure very quickly. Black powder shells are much slower burning by comparison. The short, sharp shock produced by the nitro shell is terra incognita for black powder barrels, user beware!

In regards to newly produced Damascus barrels, could you please provide a link to a manufacturer? I am aware of a Swedish firm that produces a modern steel with a Damascus - like finish to it, but I know of no currently produced barrels made in the traditional fashion. I would be very interested in knowing of a maker who does.

As to the discussion about shooting 2 3/4" shells in 2 1/2" chambers, there was a series of articles by Sherman Bell in the Double Gun Journal where he did exactly that with a piezo strain gauge attached to the gun. Pressure increases observed were in the range of 1,000 to 1,200 psi IIRC. As was correctly observed, the additional pressure does not blow up steel barrels, but manifests itself in other ways. Shooting a modern 11,000 psi 2 3/4" load out of a black powder barrel with a 2 1/2" chamber could easily produce more exciting results. Since 2 1/2" shells are reasonably easy to obtain or hand load, I see no reason to shoot long shells in short chambers.


Sharptail
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Black powder burns faster than nitro powder. However, due to it's chemical structure, nitro powder produces fewer byproducts (hence the "smokeless" moniker) and up to 5 times as much gas volume as does black powder. As a consequence, peak pressure is attained sooner with nitro. You and I have had this discussion and have agreed to disagree on the importance of the shape of the pressure curve versus simply the peak pressure value. I know you believe that achieving peak pressure much faster can cause more "brittle" steels to fail. The quote below will illuminate which type of steel barrels you should be concerned about. I've fired 8,500 psi Gamebore shells through guns that were designed for shells that were more in the 5 - 6K psi range on numerous occasions and in all kinds of weather without evidence of major or even minor stress to the guns.

The following quote was taken from the Family and Friends forum. Note the comments about which barrel displayed brittle fracture.

Zircon
01-19-2007, 11:31 PM
All kinds of old wive's tales abound on the 'net regarding damascus vs. "fluid steel" (homogeneous) barrels. I am doing a failure analysis of a pair of Parker barrels - one set damascus, and the other set homogenous. These barrels were in a study by Sherman Bell and Tom Armbrust, published in Double Gun Journal. They subjected each barrel to increasingly heavier loads and they both failed at about 30,000 psi. Modern ammo gets up perhaps 12,000 psi, at most. That said, most folks that shoot these old gals use shells loaded to the 7,500 psi range.

During the failure analysis I noticed that the fracture length for the Vulcan homogenous barrels was substantially longer than for the damascus barrels. A close examination of the fracture surface showed progressive, low cycle fatigue marks on the damascus barrel. The crack advanced slightly with each increasingly higher pressured load. On the Vulcan barrels, both sides failed by a brittle fracture mechanism. By this, I mean the barrels let go in one fell swoop. Even though both sets of barrels failed at 30,000 psi, the behavior of the damascus barrels was superior to the Vulcan barrels, owing to the fact that the Vulcan barrels failed in a brittle fracture mode. A ductile fracture trumps a brittle fracture every time.

One of the wive's tails with damascus is that it will fail at the welds where the original rods were forge-welded together. When I looked at this particular set of damascus barrels using a metallographically prepared sample, and up to 1,000X optical magnification, I saw NO EVIDENCE of weld joint failure, slag in the weld joints, porosity in the weld joints, etc. The study is still underway, and I hope to eventually publish it in Double Gun Journal. I have about 30 old barrels in this study, homogenous, damascus, and twist included. I am a practicing metallurgist who holds an M.S. degree, and am qualified to state the observations of barrel integrity made in this posting.
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You can read the entire thread at:

ht tp://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-55364.html


As far as current manufacture of damascus barrels, you're in for a treat. A couple of your favorite makers are among several sources for new guns equipped with damascus barrels - Purdey and Greener.

Follow the link below and scroll down to the section entitled simply "Modern".

ht tp://www.archive.org/stream/modernshotguns00greeuoft/modernshotguns00greeuoft_djvu.txt

For those of you who would embark on a personal journey through the process of damascus barrel making, materials are available right here in Canada at Damasteel Canada:

ht tp://tigheknives.com/DamasteelCanadaSteelHome.html
 
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