So I got a theory see

trapoholic

trapoholic

CGN Regular
Rating - 100%
49   0   0
Location
Da swamp
This theory involves bonded and non bonded bullets, anyway down to brass tacks here...This is what I come up with, I been using cup and core bullets I.e. core lokts, federal blue box, hornady (disaster) since I got my rifle, 6 or so years ago.

I use 180 grains in all the ones I've used, I got a 30-06 just to clear that question up...So from the bullets I have managed to recover were less then stellar, total separation, copper peeled back lead not so much...And in the hornady's case just completely blew apart inside the deer.

So this brings me to bonded bullets since I started reloading its possible to afford them, Anyway my theory is...A cup and core bullet that is 180 grains flying at around 2600-2650 outta my 22" 7600 barrel Hits bambi bone or no bone, the copper immediately starts to peel off the core. According to physics the kinetics of that is, well, pretty much obselite cause they're not expanding and transferring there energy at the same time.

Now for bonded bullets (physics likes bonded better they don't confuse it) Say I loaded up some 180 grain accubonds or deep curls, when they hit the kinetics have to work alot harder to peel copper and lead bonded together which translates into really deep penetrations but slower energy transfer because they are built so tough.

So now my question arises...If im going to reload some bonded bullets for deer, Ultimately if I wanted 180 grain non bonded performance I would have to load a lighter grain such as 165 or even 150. To get the same whack from it because they are built to hold together and they are tougher. And more energy would be needed to open them up...Am I right?

Feedback and somebody a little more in tune with kinetics would be appreciated on this subject, thank you!
 
Deer are pretty light skinned and boned any 180gr bullet from a 30 cal will work if placed right. Non bonded bullets expand and fragment rapidly. Each piece has momentum and energy and will do damage. And bonded bullet takes more force to deform it. If a bullet is of solid or well built constuction it may zip right thru a deer if no bones are hit. For deer I light fragmentable bullets for quick kills in the lung shots. Very little meat lost. I good way to test bullets is I take 4l water jugs 7-8 or so line them up between 2 2"x8" side by side and fire into them. You can trace every 4" or so of "wound"channel and any fragments that are peeled off stay in the bottom of the jugs. The first 1-2 jugs maybe completely destroyed. I test all my bullets this way. Need 12 jugs for my 45-70. 5 jugs for my 25-06 and 6 jugs for my 300wm. Fusion bullets do not hold together but for deer are acceptable.

Deer being light animals you don't need more then 8" penetration for a broadside shot. Deer may not offer enough medium broadside to fully expand bonded bullets. They will plow right thru. The question becomes are you the type that likes entry and exit holes or for the animal to absorb all the bullets energy? Shoulder shot or lung shot? Hopefully this isn't to confusing to follow I'm tired and hungry
 
I think that conventional wisdom says that if you use a tougher bullet, you can drop down in weight for more velocity and flatter trajectory and maintain the same performance on game.
 
If your not finding your deer, or finding them, but more than 100 yards away from where you shot, then you need to change bullets. I like to shoot deer with heart shots, and if there is a leg bone in front of it, the hole on the other side of the deer is bigger and they drop dead on the spot already well bled.


Oddly, this topic is more for larger animals as deer are not heavy or heavy boned animals. If you shoot moose, elk, buffalo or large bears, then you have a real concern of bullet separation/penetration. Deer not so, nor does it matter if the bullet is clean through or expanded, they drop easy and are the easiest animal to kill in the large game category.
 
If you use anything but conventional bullets, bullets may pass through and not expand enough and this brings up a totally different argument concerning pass throughs versus a bullet that stays in the animal and dumps all it's energy there.
 
I've found a gas checked cast flat point in the .45-70 to work as well as anything. I have to agree with the poster who stated that you don't need premium bullets for deer as they're constructed on the light side. From all the high-end bullets that get sent down-range during deer season, you'd think that animals have become indestructible over the past 40 years...
 
blasted_saber said:
But the question is; Did you fail to kill any deer you hit with the cup/core bullets? I could care less if the bullet doesn't hold together if the animal is dead.
Click to expand...

No sir they were all quite dead, the last one took 3 shots to the boiler room he was a big fella...But the most shots before him were 2 on the bigger ones, I just wasn't impressed by what the bullets did. The big guy was built like a brick #### house a tougher bullet would have been better.
 
All the years I have been reloading my 06 I have used Nosler partitions 180 grn protected points , I have tried other bullets for other people who don’t think it’s not worth the extra $ for them and they have had animals walk or run away ….point is if you make a bad shot ..hit a bone the deer doesn’t go anywhere because you break the bone… and if you shot it clean through they dont go far .. and for all that say 30-06 is too big for deer …where I hunt deer, moose and elk are open and you need something for all occasions
And no I have never had a deer/moose walk away
 
There is nothign wrong with cup and core bulelts. I would bet that most hunters are using exactly that and they're having no problems, nor did they for the first 42 years of the history of the 30-06 before the Partition came along. But since you're horny for a change, I would recommend the 180gr Nosler Partition. I've shot them for years in both my 30-06 and my 300WM and they've killed deer, caribou and moose nicely. They'll probably punch through most deer even at 2600fps muzzle velocity, and that's a good thing. Energy doesn't kill things, holes through important bits kills things. If you drive a cup and core bullet into a deer's vitals and it comes apart at that point, it's not the energy that kills the deer, it's the holes torn through the heart, lungs and liver that kills it. *ss shoot the same deer and have the bullet stay in and he doesn't die even though the energy "dumped" inside his body.
 
Bullet makers and their advertiseing agents have done us a diservice. Instead of concentrateing on the typical wound channel a bullet will make at a given velocity, they would have us believe that what the bullet looks like when its done will scare the animal to death.
 
BigUglyMan said:
There is nothign wrong with cup and core bulelts. I would bet that most hunters are using exactly that and they're having no problems, nor did they for the first 42 years of the history of the 30-06 before the Partition came along. But since you're horny for a change, I would recommend the 180gr Nosler Partition. I've shot them for years in both my 30-06 and my 300WM and they've killed deer, caribou and moose nicely. They'll probably punch through most deer even at 2600fps muzzle velocity, and that's a good thing. Energy doesn't kill things, holes through important bits kills things. If you drive a cup and core bullet into a deer's vitals and it comes apart at that point, it's not the energy that kills the deer, it's the holes torn through the heart, lungs and liver that kills it. *ss shoot the same deer and have the bullet stay in and he doesn't die even though the energy "dumped" inside his body.
Click to expand...



BigUglyMan, I laugh hysterically when I read your name because it paired with the picture just kills me!! But yes very horny fiending for a new bullet! 150-165 was the target just because the 180's either separate or open up 3/4 of the way through the critter...but then again those are core lokts and winchester power points...The hornady's just blew up! :eek:f:P:
 
Myself I prefer the slightly more "predictable" manner in which a bonded or partition bullet performs.

I have had/seen conventional bullets blow completely to pieces and also stay totally together and only have rifling marks on them.

Although like others have stated, it is more of what the bullet does as opposed to how it ends up which dictates results.

Once again bullet choice for appropriate game is they key, and yes there is obvious overlap but I wouldn't use a varmint grenade on a moose!
 
If I was loading a 30-06 for deer hunting, I'd use a 130gr TTSX and shoot them at about 3200fps. No need to adjust for bullet drop at distance until past about 300 yards, and you can take any shot, from any angle that you want, and easily get to the vitals.
 
Kelly Timoffee said:
Myself I prefer the slightly more "predictable" manner in which a bonded or partition bullet performs.

I have had/seen conventional bullets blow completely to pieces and also stay totally together and only have rifling marks on them.

Although like others have stated, it is more of what the bullet does as opposed to how it ends up which dictates results.

Once again bullet choice for appropriate game is they key, and yes there is obvious overlap but I wouldn't use a varmint grenade on a moose!
Click to expand...

I know what your sayin, but at the same time you know how much trauma and destruction does once it opens and transfers all the energy? The hydrostatic shock does just that, It shock the internals big time and that alone will kill a animal, I know if a bomb went off in my chest I'd be all kindsa dead! Excuse my spelling I type like I talk, I am a hillbilly!
 
Gatehouse said:
Nosler makes the Accubond, a tipped, bonded bullet. Good bullet. A 150gr NAB would be a good deer medicine in a 30-06.
Click to expand...

I like the way you think Gatehouse! Load some up in the 300 savage and 308 to you think would be good ya? I been starrin at em pretty heavy :p But this leads me to the last question...Are the ballistic tips like green tip non bonded really as good as people say they are for actually mushrooming and holding together?!
 
I am a firm believer in the the 2holes are better than 1 theory. One hole can often close over if the hide shifts, leaving no hole to bleed from, giving the animal lots of time to escape before he dies of internal bleeding. BUT, if you make 2 holes, good luck shifting your hide to cover a 4-6 inch exit wound. What a bunch of hooey, all this "energy transfer" BS. Penetration is the key to clean kills, and let me say, nothing better than tracking an animal that spilled buckets of blood out the exit wound. Try that with one of the "energy dump" animals. More luck than anything to find them. Just get yourself a box of partition, X-bullets, GMX solids, or accubonds (I currently use 200 gr AB's in all my 30 cal rifles.......except of course the turdy turdy!)
Yes, they are more per box, but once you find "your load" the amount of bullets you actually use in the field will decrease. Plus , for some reason, if you aren't confident in the performance of your current loadings, you might as well spring for the better bullets. Confidence is important to shoot well, and if you don't believe in your gear, you won't shoot to your ability. Just like the windsor water pellet commercials....................."Ya gotta get the good ones".
(but if deer are all you hunt, cup and core bullets are just fine. Its just that for a guy like me, I'm ALWAYS hunting for mulitple species at the same time - bear, moose, woodland caribou, wolves, and I load up for the biggest species I may encounter that day, not necessarily the one that got me off the couch. I don't care at all about killing an animal with a bullet thats "too big" for it. (or traditionally is rarely used for that species) As dead is dead.
 
sgt.rock said:
I am a firm believer in the the 2holes are better than 1 theory. One hole can often close over if the hide shifts, leaving no hole to bleed from, giving the animal lots of time to escape before he dies of internal bleeding. BUT, if you make 2 holes, good luck shifting your hide to cover a 4-6 inch exit wound. What a bunch of hooey, all this "energy transfer" BS. Penetration is the key to clean kills, and let me say, nothing better than tracking an animal that spilled buckets of blood out the exit wound. Try that with one of the "energy dump" animals. More luck than anything to find them. Just get yourself a box of partition, X-bullets, GMX solids, or accubonds (I currently use 200 gr AB's in all my 30 cal rifles.......except of course the turdy turdy!)
Yes, they are more per box, but once you find "your load" the amount of bullets you actually use in the field will decrease. Plus , for some reason, if you aren't confident in the performance of your current loadings, you might as well spring for the better bullets. Confidence is important to shoot well, and if you don't believe in your gear, you won't shoot to your ability. Just like the windsor water pellet commercials....................."Ya gotta get the good ones".
(but if deer are all you hunt, cup and core bullets are just fine. Its just that for a guy like me, I'm ALWAYS hunting for mulitple species at the same time - bear, moose, woodland caribou, wolves, and I load up for the biggest species I may encounter that day, not necessarily the one that got me off the couch. I don't care at all about killing an animal with a bullet thats "too big" for it. (or traditionally is rarely used for that species) As dead is dead.
Click to expand...


I like the way you think Sgt. rock! I might get bashed for sayin this buuuutt...If that sumbeech don't fall down after the first shot I'm not afraid sling some lead to get em down faster!;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom