In IDPA for SSP it says that you must "Begin hammer down for selective DA/SA pistols". Does this include SA/DA pistols without a decocker? Or should they start cocked and locked? I can't find a definition of "selective" in the rules, but I'm assuming it means pistols in which you can safety lower the hammer on a live round using a decocker.
Hammer Down with No Decocker?
- Thread starter dave_dark
- Start date
SSP needs to fire first round double action very much lile IPSC production rules...manually decocking is fine, and yes it needs to be fully decocked. Guns with decocking levers decock to where the decocker leaves the hammer.
If you want to be cocked and locked, you will be in ESP.
If you want to be cocked and locked, you will be in ESP.
DA/SA, DAO pistols start hammer down in SSP
Guns with a decocker may start decocked or hammer down at the option of the shooter when shooting SSP or ESP.
Striker fired DA pistols eg M&P & Glock start cocked and if the M&P is a gun with a manual safety installed it has must be applied.
SA pistols play in ESP and start cocked & locked.
XD series of pistols are deemed to be SA pistols and play in ESP.
Take Care
Bob
So if the shooter wants to start cocked and locked they can do so, but then they will be bumped to ESP?
If the shooter chooses to start cocked & locked they are shooting ESP. It isn't a question of being bumped. If you are registered to shoot SSP you start hammer down.
Take Care
Bob
Guns with only a decocker may, at the shooters option also start hammer down in either division. Not sure why they would but they can.
Take Care
Bob
My understanding is that if the gun does not have a manual safety that is has to start hammer down (for safety reasons).
This came up a while back when someone had....I think it was an LDA, or something like that. They could start hammer down, but there was no safety if they wanted to start hammer cocked.
No Matt. Decocker models with or without a safety must start decocked or, at the shooters option, hammer down by rule in SSP. I don't know of anyone who chooses the latter as in doing so it lengthens the trigger pull.
For SSP they cannot start with the hammer fully cocked.
For decocker models without a safety they must start either decocked or hammer down in ESP. DA/SA guns as you know start in SSP with the hammer fully down.
See page 19 2 B for SSP requirements. The rule covering the balance of the pistol divisions falls to page 10, C 15.
The Para LDA's hammer falls at rest fully down when partially cocked.
Clarity and Vague are strangers when it comes to this issue but our rule book is what it is. Hopefully the next full revision of the book will clear these questions up.
Take Care
Bob
No Matt. Decocker models with or without a safety must start decocked or, at the shooters option, hammer down by rule in SSP. I don't know of anyone who chooses the latter as in doing so it lengthens the trigger pull.
For SSP they cannot start with the hammer fully cocked.
For decocker models without a safety they must start either decocked or hammer down in ESP. DA/SA guns as you know start in SSP with the hammer fully down.
See page 19 2 B for SSP requirements. The rule covering the balance of the pistol divisions falls to page 10, C 15.
The Para LDA's hammer falls at rest fully down when partially cocked.
Clarity and Vague are strangers when it comes to this issue but our rule book is what it is. Hopefully the next full revision of the book will clear these questions up.
Take Care
Bob
I think I am actually confusing the fact situation a little....the guys gun was definitely atypical....I seem to remember it not having a decocker or external safety.
I remember telling him that he had to shoot SSP because I didn't want a newbie starting cocked and locked without an external safety.
So, for greater clarity, a shooter can shoot in ESP without an external safety? This is going back a ways, but I thought it was you who told me they had to shoot SSP.
It's funny how so much discussion comes out of these posts. My original question was simply about safely lowering the hammer. A decocker is a safe way to lower a hammer, but manually lowering it by holding it and pulling the trigger has it's obvious safety issues. I was told if you have a DA/SA you must start hammer down in IDPA. I don't like an accidental discharge relying on my greasy fingers holding the hammer, so I wanted to know if I had the option of going cocked and locked. IMO this is the safer way to go when you don't have a decocker. It was clarified that I can choose to do so by shooting ESP instead of SSP. Thanks guys.
If you want to shoot cocked & locked then you have two options in IDPA. Shoot a .45acp pistol in CDP or ESP using any pistol in a caliber 9MM or larger.
I agree greasy fingers and lowering a hammer are not a good combination. That said lowering the hammer with greasy fingers or dry can be accomplished safely by simply inserting your thumb between the hammer and frame. Pull the trigger and slowly roll your thumb away from the hammer and allow it to gently lower to it's full down position. I have yet to see a AD/ND using this method. I have, however, witnessed two AD/ND's using the finger pinch method. The former method is used every week-end at IDPA/IPSC matches without incident and is perfectly safe.
I can only assume shooters who prefer the finger/thumb pinch method ensure their hands and hammer are grease free and they can maintain a firm grip on the hammer. The worse case scenario is an AD/ND occurs, a bullet goes into the berm and the shooter goes home.
Take Care
Bob
Matt can you find out what gun it was? Striker fired pistols as you know most often don't have external safeties but I know you are talking about a hammer gun. I have never seen a hammer gun without a manual safety that allowed the gun to be fully cocked and not have the hammer at rest ie fully down. DAO guns have the hammer fully at rest as far as I know.
SSP guns cannot start fully cocked. ESP guns can but the safety must be applied.
Any gun that meets SSP criteria may shoot is ESP. This would include all the striker fired pistols, most of which have no external manual safeties. In ESP the shooters have the option to start cocked and locked. They don't have this option in SSP. DAO only guns may or may not have a manual safety. With the hammer fully down the safety need not be applied in either division.
There are Decocker models that come with an additional manual safety. Once the gun is decocked the safety does not have to be applied in either division. If the shooter wishes not to apply the decocker and chooses ESP Division he can start the gun cocked and locked.
Take Care
Bob
If you have a "combat" style hammer, a very effective way of lowering on a live round is to grab the hammer with your thumb and index finger, pull the trigger and gently lower the hammer. This is what i was taught and i have seen more people do it like that than any other way. I have only every seen one AD (with any hammer dropping technique) which was by an experienced shooter who had recently suffered an injury to his left hand and lost the strength half way through the process. Which ever way you choose make sure you practice dry, and on the range before you are on the line at a match.
