AR upper with no forward assist

do tell which school taught you not to? I'm more or less with you on not to use it, but if you're going to ask the questions.......



The general consensus is to actually keep it if you count the posts, so you might want to double check that. Well the posts from the Army people that have used it everyday in crap environments anyways.

Like I said I do agree with you not to use it in general. For this person's intended use, I would also agree its not worth the weight. For military use, I'd rather carry that 1oz of weight for the one time in a million chance I need it. If you need a forward assist, and you have that much dirt/gunk that your bolt just didnt QUITE seat then you'll be needing that forward assist pretty quick.

Well as many know I've taken courses from both SIG Arms Academy and Tactical response. Although I haven't taken a carbine class from the Academy, this very topic came up in discussion with the instructor over dinner. His answer, leave it the f*ck alone. Tactical response openly states the FA is a useless appendage and should be left alone. To the best of my knowledge Magpul Dynamics does not preach its use(although Haley can be seen slapping it out of habit in carbine 2 when he's demonstrating barricade work). Viking Tactics(Kyle Lamb) does not condone its use, and I'm confident LAV doesn't either. Haven't seen or researched enough about Jason Falla but from what I have seen he doesn't use it either.

Put on a pair of gloves.
Now feel the top of a magazine, what do you feel? The top of a magazine? sweet that works in no/low light.

With night vision I can see the chambered round when I crack the bolt, the same way I can see the rounds in a magazine. Give it a try.


I've shot with gloves in the cold, a chamber check via the magazine is more than doable. If the glove is too thick to positively determine round position, then its likely too thick to fit in the trigger guard. Albeit, a winter guard eliminates the issue of gloves but doesn't help the chamber check. Keep in mind, chamber checks are ADMINISTRATIVE and therefore there is no set time frame nor priority in completing it in the most timely fashion possible.

Chamber checks IMO are a pointless activity. If you ensured the magazine was seated by both inserting/tapping and tugging, then cycled the charge handle all the way to the rear. The rifle chambered the first round. Its odd how so many feel an administrative chamber check is crucial, but no one ever does one when either the clock or the bullets start flying. Its as if miraculously the user/operator/owner/shooter now believes in the design of his rifle so much that a chamber check is not needed; Or perhaps its the more pressing issue of beating the clock or not getting shot that instills that confidence??


As for using NV, that's a luxury most don't have and the rest shouldn't rely on.


TDC
 
Uppers with the FA removed are designed for the sporting/commercial market. All it does is provide a sleeker product and removes what is in that application a useless accessory.

As for military applications, it is here to stay. Like matty86suk pointed out; "rather have it than not need it, than need it and not have it...."

In the military there were many times I HAD to use a FA. And its use was drilled into to you from day one. I still find myself using it in IA's out of muscle memory, even though it's not required.

While we aren't getting rid of our standard upper with FA when our slab side upper comes out; we do realize that there is a place and application for both and ultimately it comes down to personal preference.
 
From my experience....

Play time on the range with gun that gets cleaned more than it gets shot, the FA is not really necessary.

But, for company guns that spend time in some pretty dirty conditions while being used in some pretty stressful situations, pressing the FA is just one additional step that can add to the reliability of first time trigger pull bangs.

YMMV
 
I don't care what some instructors with LE only background promote, for those in the big army please leave the FA alone. In the military, there are always creative ways to f**k things up so just leave that button alone, so people can find creative ways to unf**k their creative f**k ups.

For all others, it does not really matter. If you do not use it, leave it. Not a big deal.
 
In firing hundreds of thousands or rounds, three tours and working in the industry for 11 years, I have never seen a stoppage with live rounds that would have been prevented by the use of the forward assist.

I have however seen several breech explosions caused by use of the forward assist.

Gene Stoner was literally forced to add it to the design by US Army Ordnance Corps. In fact he chose a different design, and was again overruled.


“In my opinion, in all the development – and I tested this weapon…in India and Europe and all over the United States; I was on many testing programs – I never saw an instance where it would have done any good…under sand and mud of every type of firing conditions in the world. I was always afraid of [a bolt closure device] myself, because when you get a cartridge that wont seat in a rifle and you deliberately drive it in [to the chamber], usually you are buying yourself more trouble. The thing that I always thought of was immediate action. To get that [cartridge] out of there and find out what the trouble was; rather than jam it in and fire it.”
Gene Stoner, Ichord Committee Hearing 1967
 
In firing hundreds of thousands or rounds, three tours and working in the industry for 11 years, I have never seen a stoppage with live rounds that would have been prevented by the use of the forward assist.

I have however seen several breech explosions caused by use of the forward assist.
Ok, now were talking. I was looking for more than a " I heard it from this really cool guy at dinner". This is how you quantify a f**king opinion.

I don't make a habit of it, as I've noticed the same. I did use it when brasschecking and clearing though. Not for IA's. I have no idea if it was right or not, but it worked.

Now that I think about it a bit more I used it a few times in the winter. Shoot a bit weapon gets hot/a bit sweaty, stop shooting, sweat freezes, start shooting again. That was with live and blank and happened a few times.
 
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.. Developed out of a well documented, need stemming from the Vietnamese conflict. Contributing factors, were the change of ammunition (Powder) that caused a build up of residue, plus the high Humidity and less than optimum cleaning in the field. ( Comic Book styled, Instructions, indicating a very minimal need for Cleaning ) .... Mud, and God knows what else was mixed in with it, didn't help either. ... David K
 
So TDC, I guess your passing on my invite to the 3 gun match at spruce grove?

For starters, I'm in Vegas over the weekend, so I'll pass on a visit to the Edmonton area. Second, what is there to teach or show you? Stop using the FA if you are, and if you aren't using it, carry on.

It amazes me how many in this thread feel that common sense is somehow invalid when compared to someone with X number of years MIL service who's only response is "Its how we were trained, blah blah, blah". That has absolutely no merit base whatsoever. Think for yourselves, this includes MIL and LE guys. Just because its what is taught, doesn't mean its the most efficient or effective method. In addition to that, the perceived need seems to stem from the "dirty round/chamber" scenario. If that is indeed the most likely case for the FA, than I must ask. Why would you use the FA to FORCE a potentially deformed round into a potentially obstructed/excessively fouled chamber? When you experience a stoppage the IMMEDIATE ACTION calls for a TAP/TUG and RACK. If that fails then its time for remedial action, which involves additional input/imformation. So your IA failed, you then observe(if possible) the chamber and see a stuck round. Would it be faster, easier, and more positive to simply cycle the CH and go again, or f*ck with the FA and the offending round of unkown integrity? Honestly, if its time for RA, its time to UNLOAD then RELOAD the rifle. it makes life easy and eliminates nearly all potential to create a greater issue. Regardless, the fix is no remedial, not immediate which means smacking that FA is not something you should do out of habit ever, and if the FA is part of your remedial action, you need more data for solving the problem(look again at the chamber) or need a refresher on simple effective remedial action drills.

TDC
 
.... I base my comments on reading a fair bit of the Internal Memos, and Transcripts from "hearings' held by the Australian Army, folowing Australias increased involvemnt in the Conflict, and after the M16 had become fairly distributed amongst the Australian Forces, and not just "Special Forces". ( The L1A1 was initially, and predoamiantely, the standard weapon, with the Owen Gun, being the SMG issued, to NCOs primarily. The very early,Triangular Fore end, was found to be flimsy in Service, and the Chambers were probably tight in the early Guns ( My Speculation ) plus the tendency, to fire somewhat indiscriminately, on FA, with a Powder that had been changed since the .223 rounds development, caused a "Build UP" in the forward portion of the Chamber. Thus a round would enter the chamber, but the Bolt would not close 100%. Resulting in the application of a Boot or similar, to force closure. ... Conditions were terrible, and the damp and mud etc. compounded the problem. Initially the M16 was touted as being virtually Maintenance Free, as witness the Illustrated Comic Book used for Instructing the US "Draftees" on cleaning and maintaining their Weapon in the Field. ...... In a clean Environment, and for normal use, the Forward Assist is unlikely to ever be needed. But Battles are seldom fought under ideal conditions ! Obviously, in the Military Application, were the Forward Assist found to be completely unnecessary, it's safe to assume, it would have be eliminated, as a cost cutting measure if nothing else. ..... David K
 
It amazes me how many in this thread feel that common sense is somehow invalid when compared to someone with X number of years MIL service who's only response is "Its how we were trained, blah blah, blah". That has absolutely no merit base whatsoever. Think for yourselves, this includes MIL and LE guys. Just because its what is taught, doesn't mean its the most efficient or effective method.

TDC

Agreed.

However chamber checks are not pointless. Biggest issues with majority of mag fed firearms are mag related. So you dont do chamber checks and rely on pulling the mag and checking it.

When do you do a tac reload? After a string of fire, lull in gunfight...whatever. Tac reload then chamber check...because you have the time. Doing a mag check after a tac reload does nothing for you to know if theres a round in the chamber.

Was I trained to use the FA...yes. Do I use it after every stoppage like "I'm suppose to"...no.
Do I use it after chamber checks...yes.
 
Agreed.

However chamber checks are not pointless. Biggest issues with majority of mag fed firearms are mag related. So you dont do chamber checks and rely on pulling the mag and checking it.

When do you do a tac reload? After a string of fire, lull in gunfight...whatever. Tac reload then chamber check...because you have the time. Doing a mag check after a tac reload does nothing for you to know if theres a round in the chamber.

Was I trained to use the FA...yes. Do I use it after every stoppage like "I'm suppose to"...no.
Do I use it after chamber checks...yes.

I see where you're coming from but I don't buy it. If the magazine seated, the round chambered, its that simple. There is no where else for the round to go, and if you visually and physically checked to see that the bolt was closed, there is no issue. The potential for out of battery bolts is a direct result of poor/insufficient lubrication, excessive fouling or other debris, and operators who f*ck with the bolt by partially retracting it to chamber check.

Lets look at your example in detail. You've just finished initial contact with enemy forces, there's a lull in the action. You decide to top up as anyone with some smarts would do. Now, if you pull the magazine from the rifle and notice rounds in it(a partial mag) and simply replace that mag with a fresh one. Why the need to CC? If you hadn't the time to top off you would have put full faith in the rifle still having a chambered round and atleast some available in the magazine, correct? Again, how did removing the partial magazine somehow equate to a loss of trust/belief that the rifle was not loaded. What evidence was presented to make you believe the rifle wasn't loaded? As I've said before, when competing or engaging other targets, you simply reload your rifle/pistol/shotgun when it runs dry at the very least, or sooner should the opportunity present itself. If your EMERGENCY reload, that's a reload from slide lock, or bolt lock does not include a CC, and an EMERGENCY reload is the most critical of them all. Then why bother with a CC at all? Tac reloads are done from cover at your discretion and convenience(for the most part;)) Administrative reloads are done at your leisure indefinitely. Neither of those cases, where most CC occur are critical loading events.

Some would say, "well if you have the time during a tac/admin load to CC then why not. Its just that little extra insurance." I say bullsh*t.. If a CC is extra insurance, wouldn't you want it when it counts the most, like during an EMERGENCY reload? Makes sense to me, but the reality is, you don't have time for that. Its an EMERGENCY reload for a reason, its an emergency. Your firearm is no longer serviceable and you're at great risk of injury/death(or losing the match). Chamber checking does nothing to ensure greater function or reliability in a firearm. Chamber checking is a mental assurance for the operator, nothing more.

That being said, if you insist on doing one for whatever reason. Checking rounds in the magazine is the most effective method, whether that be for a handgun or a rifle. Checking round position or witness holes along with removing and inserting the magazine has ZERO effect on the chambered round. Playing with magazines will not and cannot f*ck up that first round. It can however cause problems for the rest of the rounds in said magazine if the magazine is improperly seated. A poorly seated magazine is 100% operator error. As is an out of battery bolt after doing a CC via the bolt/CH.

Personally I subscribe to an entirely different method that is beyond simple. If a magazine gets inserted, the charge handle/slide gets cycled. Inserting a magazine IS loading the rifle/pistol and therefore the action must be cycled. It works on all semi autos, and it works every time I put a magazine in. It could be a tac load, admin load, or emergency reload, its the same for all. Its also the second half of your IA drill for a type one and two stoppage, weird huh? Same movements for several tasks. The loss of one round is cheaper insurance than running the risk of easing the bolt most of the way home. Seeing as how autos are designed to operate at speed and with great force, I am confident when I cycle the CH or slide and let it return to battery as it was designed to do, that the round did indeed get stripped off that properly inserted magazine(TAP TUG to confirm) and is indeed chambered and awaiting instructions.


There's a lot of discussion about methods of loading, unloading, IA's, RA's, CC, etc etc. At the end of the day, these movements constitute a very small portion of any shooting event be it an LE/MIL shooting or a competition. Focusing on sight alignment, trigger squeeze, and follow through is the bulk of the event. The sooner you put rounds on target effectively, the less of the other crap you'll have to do. It only goes to reason that focusing on the marksmanship fundamentals is far more important than the tertiary skill sets above.

TDC
 
one legit thing i can think of for the FA is when you want to chamber a round slowly with the charging handle and then make sure its seated with the FA. this is kind of limited to some sort of stealth mission where the soldiers dont have a round chambered (i have no idea why they wouldnt, but hey) and hunters who dont like walking around with a loaded round in the chamber (this is pretty common from what ive seen, its how i always walked when i was younger with my bolt action)
 
one legit thing i can think of for the FA is when you want to chamber a round slowly with the charging handle and then make sure its seated with the FA. this is kind of limited to some sort of stealth mission where the soldiers dont have a round chambered (i have no idea why they wouldnt, but hey) and hunters who dont like walking around with a loaded round in the chamber (this is pretty common from what ive seen, its how i always walked when i was younger with my bolt action)

Both of those scenarios are lame. There's no reason for MIL types to not have a round chambered. If danger is that close, chambering a round rapidly and engaging will still offer surprise. Chambering slowly might offer surprise on your end. As for hunters who don't run with a chambered round. Get over it. If you haven't the confidence and skill set to carry a loaded rifle safely, get a new activity..

TDC
 
We've got a lightweight billet upper coming off shortly with no FA.

That would be perfect for a 9mm upper build....


Its odd how so many feel an administrative chamber check is crucial, but no one ever does one when either the clock or the bullets start flying. Its as if miraculously the user/operator/owner/shooter now believes in the design of his rifle so much that a chamber check is not needed; Or perhaps its the more pressing issue of beating the clock or not getting shot that instills that confidence??

Agree 100%.


When do you do a tac reload? After a string of fire, lull in gunfight...whatever. Tac reload then chamber check...because you have the time.

Yup, tac reload 'should' be done during a lull in the fight, or after a string of fire/completing a stage on the range. But after a tactical reload, I don't do a press or chamber check. I'm assuming that if I didn't change the mag, the the round in the chamber would be there when I pull the trigger. And guess what, it would. And that doesn't change after doing the mag change.

I've seen guys on the line so into their press/chamber checks, that after a reload in the middle of a string of fire, they do a check when there are still rounds to be fired.

Stupidity knows no bounds......
 
Carbon fouling combined with sand in your rifle/C7 under conditions like this, I used my FA, according to TDC it is not needed = WRONG, if i TAP/TUG and RACK that wouldn't have fixed my problem and there was no need because the BCG was not fully forward but 80% forward mostly and the round was not out of alignment so a simple pressing off the FA fixed the issue. You do not use the FA in a double feed circumstance or in most cases during IA drills, but it does have it's uses. To say it is useless is wrong and being overzealous on TDC part.

I'm not disagreeing with TDC on everything but the FA has it's time to use it. Just leave it alone.
 
Ah guys what about when you're sneaking up on the enemy and you can't fully rack the CH due to the noise risk...

Well, with the FA I can do a quiet and easy rack of the CH and then use the FA to fully seat the BCG....

Duh!
Why didn't you load the round as soon as you took it from the rack?
Do you carry an empty rifle until you see the enemy?
 
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