AR upper with no forward assist

I think everyone can agree that if you're in the military, you should have it.. even if you never need it. I would not want to be without it of only for the mental edge it gives you. Anyone that has had a bad stoppage under fire smashes in his FA like he's trying to shove his palm through the receiver.. it makes you feel like you're back in charge of the situation, and that's important sometimes. It's a mental reboot that often signifies that you're back in the game. Anytime I do a IA under stress, even at the range today, that FA gets a smack. Just habit.

If you're a paper shooter, there is no need.. ever. If you do, you really should be stepping back and cleaning your rifle because no range gun is going to get feces and meaty bits stuck in it.

It takes some pretty severe conditions to which the FA is required. Some people never experience those conditions. If you are in that kind of environment choose your equipment accordingly. It's like any other piece of equipment, it's there to counteract a specific condition. I've worn armor in combat.. never been shot. Doesn't mean I'd have left it in the camp. I have friends that have been shot... ergo, armor up. Same with anything else.

If you're just shooting baddies on the TV screen from the comfort of your couch, losing the FA will make you lighter.. faster.. more attractive and generally ###ier to all those in the room (even if it's just Mr. Wiggles your Pug.)


There is a place for each. And companies like ourselves are looking to service both the military and commercial markets. The military will never have this discussion. Never. Commercial shooters however are more open to change, and have the freedom to exploit it to suit their specific needs. But these two end users and environments are NOT the same, and can't be treated as such.
 
TDC said:
The bayonet is borderline useless but I would say its far more useful than the FA. At the very least you can open your rations or mail with it.

TDC
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Opening rations and mail is your multi tool's job.
I carry my bayonet for the express purpose of going "face, neck, face face, neck neck face" on the enemy should all my other weapons fail. To have that kind of insurance is worth it's weight in diamonds. Worthless to you maybe, as it would appear you have yet to experience the moment of clarity and peace in contact that is offered by " last ditch " equipment.

Should I drop my helmet too? It's pretty heavy. Makes me sweat a bunch, then it gets in my eyes and it burns......
 
gofaster775 said:
Opening rations and mail is your multi tool's job.
I carry my bayonet for the express purpose of going "face, neck, face face, neck neck face" on the enemy should all my other weapons fail. To have that kind of insurance is worth it's weight in diamonds. Worthless to you maybe, as it would appear you have yet to experience the moment of clarity and peace in contact that is offered by " last ditch " equipment.

Should I drop my helmet too? It's pretty heavy. Makes me sweat a bunch, then it gets in my eyes and it burns......
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Exactly...... this is the problem with civilian types that think they know it all...

It is the same debate i have in regards to shorter barrel carbines compared to longer barreled carbines.. (but it's lighter and feels so natural in the hands & shoulders) Some people want to use a CQB gun for every situation, all I can say is good luck. When you are out in the open you want all the range you can get, plus the 556 loses it's benefits with the shorter carbines. Shorter carbines do have there place though.
 
Spookiest command you can ever give (even if it's just to a colour party) is "Fix Bayonets" - maybe it's just my heritage, but even in high school, that made the hair stand up on the back of my neck - throw in some pipes, and everyone in kilts and tunics and it's almost surreal. Special thanks to all of you who do so for real, on our behalf.
 
Farmboy said:
Forward assists are basically pointless. Think about it this way, if the round isn't fitting into the chamber, why force it?
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They're effective during protracted winter use, when accumulated ice from snow/frost melting within the receiver after tens to hundreds of rounds fired can make the function of the action hindered. Once firing it again it would heat up enough and be fine but the initial action of cocking to chamber a round may result in the round being partially chambered and resulting in a stoppage. The forward assist alleviates this problem. As well as in the event of similar hinderance from built up carbon after many hundreds to thousands of rounds fired in one go without maintanence.

The forward assist is more of a combat relavent function. For simple range shoots it shouldn't be necessary to have but just the same I'd rather have it in the event it is needed.

I've had to use it numerous times before (especially when using blanks) and although it's use has been rare it has proven necessary enough to be a valuable function for the sufficient operation of my C7 and thus any AR that may be used in the aforementioned environments.

:ar15:

For all the talk about bayonets, I'm with gofaster. It's better to have and not need, than to need and not have. Personally, I wouldn't even buy a carbine if I couldn't affix a bayonet. Especially considering carbines are more prefered for close quarters, a bayonet falls under that same category.
 
albertacoyotecaller said:
Man this topic is getting creepy. Asking for pictures and wanting to chat on skype. Yuck!

I will just stick the having FA on my rifle.

Greg
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I take offense to that, if you can't back it up, then perhaps a lot of you guys should refrain from posting in general. It is very annoying to hear someone posting a lot circumstantial BS(In my opinion with no real field experience) and just hiding behind the internet anonymously, not saying TDC is doing that or any one else. Essentially I was calling him out!

If you have something to hide or there are privacy issue you are concerned with then some of that is understandable, but if you are just a typical chairguner then well it speaks for it self.
 
albertacoyotecaller said:
Man this topic is getting creepy. Asking for pictures and wanting to chat on skype. Yuck!

I will just stick the having FA on my rifle.



Greg
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Leibermuster said:
I take offense to that, if you can't back it up, then perhaps a lot of you guys should refrain from posting in general. It is very annoying to hear someone posting a lot circumstantial BS(In my opinion with no real field experience) and just hiding behind the internet anonymously, not saying TDC is doing that or any one else. Essentially I was calling him out!

If you have something to hide or there are privacy issue you are concerned with then some of that is understandable, but if you are just a typical chairguner then well it speaks for it self.
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Leibermuster said:
I take offense to that, if you can't back it up, then perhaps a lot of you guys should refrain from posting in general. It is very annoying to hear someone posting a lot circumstantial BS(In my opinion with no real field experience) and just hiding behind the internet anonymously, not saying TDC is doing that or any one else. Essentially I was calling him out!

If you have something to hide or there are privacy issue you are concerned with then some of that is understandable, but if you are just a typical chairguner then well it speaks for it self.
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I don't know if you'd want to Skype with most of the people that hang around here. You might get a eyeful..

fail-ugly-guy-with-airsoft-gear.jpg
 
It is rather simple.

Those who will never be in the position to use it don't want it, those who are in the position to use it want it.


Armchair quarterbacks doing there thing again.
 
Leibermuster said:
TDC

In a gun fight you don't have time to open the rifle , pull out a bottle of CLP and start cleaning or lubing it up well on the move and rounds coming down range.
You deliberately pull certain words out of an explanation and then come out with an explanation that coincides with your points or line of thought.

HAVE YOU EVER BEEN IN A GUN FIGHT?
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN ON A MILITARY EXERCISE BEFORE?

There are situation that you cannot have your rifle in show room condition ready to rock & roll...have you ever thought what happens when a simple bottle of CLP is no longer available and your rifle starts to gum up with carbon like crazy and in an extremely dirty environment, until you are in situations like that, then please enough already.

This is really funny because I was on the range a few days ago and I actually used the FA and it worked again with no hiccups after that...lol. A friend of mine road the actions(First time on an AR) and all it took was striking the F/A and giving the BCG a little nuge, all was fine then. Basically he simulated a stoppage and gave me a fun chance to disprove your F/A is useless stupidity.

I think the problem with you is that you are taking various instructors out of context and taking there words farther and more absolute than you should.

The debate here with you is that you believe the F/A to be totally useless and it can not solve any problems on an AR in any situation, this is completely untrue and total nonfactual.

I can understand the debate of F/A being worth to put on the AR, but the truth is it is more stupid to bother taking off generally, why bother???? leave it alone already.
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For starters, if you're using CLP, you need to rethink your lubrication. Oil is 100% pure sh*t for lubricating a firearm. Anything tasked with three roles (Cleaning Lubricating Protecting) isn't doing any one of them real well. Grease is a far far superior option. Doesn't drip, burn, or blow off. Get the good stuff and its functional at extremely cold temps.

Do you have to get shot to know it hurts and sucks?
Do you have to eat sh*t to know it tastes awful?

There are many things in life that one can understand without experiencing it. A gunfight isn't one of those. However, the logic involved with functioning a piece of equipment is. Again, if the round didn't chamber on its own, as intended by design. Why would you force it into the chamber? The whole square peg in a round whole thing comes to mind. The FA can solve the problem, no doubt. But it isn't a guarantee nor is it the fastest and most effective method. Executing your IA is far more positive, is faster, and eliminates other possible causes for the stoppage. I can't think of any other service rifle that has a specific FA control. The VZ, AK, G3, FN-FAL, M1 Garand, M14 all distinctly lack such devices.

Your friend may have given you the opportunity to demonstrate the FA but all he did was f*ck up the basic operation of the rifle. You obviously observed the chamber and BCG being out of battery and solved the problem. The concern there is that you no longer were executing an IA, you were executing an RA. Oddly enough, an IA of TAP/TUG/RACK would have solved the problem without hesitation and without further input(observation of the chamber/BCG).

I'm not saying and never said the FA doesn't work, it just doesn't work as effectively or efficiently as other methods, namely your IA. The FA has the potential to solve but ONE problem. To solve that problem you must observe the chamber/BCG to determine if the FA is the correct course of action, then hope it solves it, and hope the round wasn't the culprit resulting in a stuck case or case head separation. The FA is slow, its a one trick pony, and its not a guaranteed problem solver. It sounds a lot like a politician.

TDC
 
TDC said:
For starters, if you're using CLP, you need to rethink your lubrication. Oil is 100% pure sh*t for lubricating a firearm. Anything tasked with three roles (Cleaning Lubricating Protecting) isn't doing any one of them real well. Grease is a far far superior option. Doesn't drip, burn, or blow off. Get the good stuff and its functional at extremely cold temps.
TDC
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Is that why Larry Vickers and Pat Rogers push Slip 2000 EWL? If you are going 100% with their method of pulling the mag to chamber check why buck them on Lube?

TDC said:
Executing your IA is far more positive, is faster, and eliminates other possible causes for the stoppage. I can't think of any other service rifle that has a specific FA control. The VZ, AK, G3, FN-FAL, M1 Garand, M14 all distinctly lack such devices.TDC
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All but the FN have a fixed charging handle, you just have to slap the charging handle forward. You could add in the G36 and SCAR both of which have............a charging handle that can be used to force the bolt closed.

TDC said:
Your friend may have given you the opportunity to demonstrate the FA but all he did was f*ck up the basic operation of the rifle. You obviously observed the chamber and BCG being out of battery and solved the problem. The concern there is that you no longer were executing an IA, you were executing an RA. Oddly enough, an IA of TAP/TUG/RACK would have solved the problem without hesitation and without further input(observation of the chamber/BCG).
TDC
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Only if the extractor had engaged the rim of the case and they don't always. If was sitting behind the case you are now up against a double feed.

But you know that.
 
This has been some great entertainment keep it up, it's hilarious...

Also I will be keeping my FA, but see valid points on both sides of the argument.. Soldiers may need it due to the operating environment, while the range shooters who have the luxury of ideal conditions and frequent weapon maintenance may never use it.
 
oscar_mike said:
This has been some great entertainment keep it up, it's hilarious...

Also I will be keeping my FA, but see valid points on both sides of the argument.. Soldiers may need it due to the operating environment, while the range shooters who have the luxury of ideal conditions and frequent weapon maintenance may never use it.
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Unfortunately TDC just doesn't get that... I give up...
 
TDC said:
.... Executing your IA is far more positive, is faster, and eliminates other possible causes for the stoppage. I can't think of any other service rifle that has a specific FA control. The VZ, AK, G3, FN-FAL, M1 Garand, M14 all distinctly lack such devices.
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All of those platforms will just about bend a round in half when the bolt is released. The AR is pretty weak in that respect, and not a even comparison. There's a reason why they don't have one and why the drills for these rifles are different.
 
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