Polar Man
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Looks like it's because he knows what the round is capable of, and he hit what he was aiming at.
22-250 and 223 for deer
- Thread starter hillmanr2
- Start date
Looks like it's because he knows what the round is capable of, and he hit what he was aiming at.
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
Again, that's an entry wound. You won't get an exit wound with a 35 gr VMax going 4200 fps on anything larger than a prairie dog, but I'm sure you knew that.
Confident in your equipment and ability?
I have used a 22.250 for a few years now - and it has never failed to put a deer down. Meat damage is minimal - and that means a lot to me.
I was loading 55 grain PSP Sierra bullets really hot - and deer - NW Ontario midsized deer - would go down as quick and a person could want - bleeding out well into the cavity if I avoided hitting the heart. A high shoulder blade shot impacts the spine and anchors the deer and so does a rib shot that is up close to the spine. That sort of shot is great to save time looking for a deer - but it damages a little more meat - and may require a second shot or quick work with a knife to finish the job - so I started shooting a little further back and a tiny bit lower - wait until the nearside leg is ahead to prevent damage to the leg meat. Seldom is there a blood trail - the entry wound is so very small. Seldom is there an exit hole - though a bear did have an exit the size of a loony.
Now begins the story: Not many years ago - I was out on the edge of a field - behind a dead evergreen tree which had fallen onto the field - a youngster beside me - occasionally calling - scoping the end of the field - 180 yards away - it was pure thick brushy bush - when right into my crosshairs - out of the dark bush, steps the biggest buck that I had ever seen - not so big of rack, but a big beast of a body. He was moving quick - looking - like searching expectantly - he steps one way and then turns the other and I pulled the trigger - three seconds - no more - from the time he appeared to the crack of the little gun. He launched in one direction and made a turn like a horse going around a barrel - laid right out flat as he turned and headed for the corner of the field maybe twenty - thirty yards away - and I took a hurried second shot which went wild as he disappeared from sight. I hunkered there feeling sick - that was the first time that I wished that I had been carrying a .308 - I was overwhelmed by the feeling of being undergunned.
We stood up went back to the house - picked up the dog to help find the deer - rushing to find an animal is a big mistake - and sitting to wait 20 minutes - well - it seems like an hour or two - so tempting to rush it.
We walk into the corner where it disappeared and within a few yards - there it is - stone dead. What an animal - and I found it so unbelievable that such a little bullet had killed it - one rib shattering and going with the bullet to pulverize the lungs.
Hunting was not over - a few days later, I decided to try a lighter bullet - if a PSP bullet can do the job on an animal like that - what would a factory Remington 45 grain hollow point do?
Same place - calling - cold - sitting now - tired of waiting behind the same fallen tree when we hear a horse running - badda dump badda dump ( repeat a few times) getting louder - wait - there are no horses withing a mile of us - so I struggle up from my seat in the snow and look straight down the edge of the field to see a nice doe - on the full gallop towards us - really close now - it sees me and spins and heads back down the very edge of the field - I wait as it leaves - now about 140 or 160 yards away - scope on it - and I whistle - it slows and almost stops as it turns to look back as I touch off the shot - a trifle high, but good - it drops and goes nowhere - the shot maybe two inches higher than I wanted - it damaged the backstrap meat just a little. Now we all know that a hollow point is not intended for that job - but it did very well - rib shrapnel turning the lungs into mush.
Which brings my story to this 35 grain Hornady Vmax - the last tag for that same year. I bought the V-max's - and found that they are so short that even with only 1/8th of an inch in the case, the cartridge is still stupid-looking short - and of course there are no recommended loads for that combination so I worked up a load that averaged 4202 fps - SD 17 - 41.7 grains of Varget - COL 2.269 - Fed LR primers. Energy drops fast with that little pill - and I say that a bullet should have 600 ft lbs of energy to do a deer - if place right. My bullets would be less than that by 200 yards - so I needed to keep a shot within that - also, the short cartridge length is not so accurate.
Late in the season - now very cold - which shouldn't affect Varget too much - when I had the opportunity to take a shot at the little eight-point in the picture. The shot is from high up - and the gun is zeroed at 200 (my excuses for the shot being high) - it wasn't windy - I could hear him talking - and he too went to the table by way of the slow cooker.
I estimated that all the meat damaged in those three deer would weigh two pounds or less - no heart damage - some backstrap damage.
Thanks for taking time to listen to an old guy - just talking.
I was loading 55 grain PSP Sierra bullets really hot - and deer - NW Ontario midsized deer - would go down as quick and a person could want - bleeding out well into the cavity if I avoided hitting the heart. A high shoulder blade shot impacts the spine and anchors the deer and so does a rib shot that is up close to the spine. That sort of shot is great to save time looking for a deer - but it damages a little more meat - and may require a second shot or quick work with a knife to finish the job - so I started shooting a little further back and a tiny bit lower - wait until the nearside leg is ahead to prevent damage to the leg meat. Seldom is there a blood trail - the entry wound is so very small. Seldom is there an exit hole - though a bear did have an exit the size of a loony.
Now begins the story: Not many years ago - I was out on the edge of a field - behind a dead evergreen tree which had fallen onto the field - a youngster beside me - occasionally calling - scoping the end of the field - 180 yards away - it was pure thick brushy bush - when right into my crosshairs - out of the dark bush, steps the biggest buck that I had ever seen - not so big of rack, but a big beast of a body. He was moving quick - looking - like searching expectantly - he steps one way and then turns the other and I pulled the trigger - three seconds - no more - from the time he appeared to the crack of the little gun. He launched in one direction and made a turn like a horse going around a barrel - laid right out flat as he turned and headed for the corner of the field maybe twenty - thirty yards away - and I took a hurried second shot which went wild as he disappeared from sight. I hunkered there feeling sick - that was the first time that I wished that I had been carrying a .308 - I was overwhelmed by the feeling of being undergunned.
We stood up went back to the house - picked up the dog to help find the deer - rushing to find an animal is a big mistake - and sitting to wait 20 minutes - well - it seems like an hour or two - so tempting to rush it.
We walk into the corner where it disappeared and within a few yards - there it is - stone dead. What an animal - and I found it so unbelievable that such a little bullet had killed it - one rib shattering and going with the bullet to pulverize the lungs.
Hunting was not over - a few days later, I decided to try a lighter bullet - if a PSP bullet can do the job on an animal like that - what would a factory Remington 45 grain hollow point do?
Same place - calling - cold - sitting now - tired of waiting behind the same fallen tree when we hear a horse running - badda dump badda dump ( repeat a few times) getting louder - wait - there are no horses withing a mile of us - so I struggle up from my seat in the snow and look straight down the edge of the field to see a nice doe - on the full gallop towards us - really close now - it sees me and spins and heads back down the very edge of the field - I wait as it leaves - now about 140 or 160 yards away - scope on it - and I whistle - it slows and almost stops as it turns to look back as I touch off the shot - a trifle high, but good - it drops and goes nowhere - the shot maybe two inches higher than I wanted - it damaged the backstrap meat just a little. Now we all know that a hollow point is not intended for that job - but it did very well - rib shrapnel turning the lungs into mush.
Which brings my story to this 35 grain Hornady Vmax - the last tag for that same year. I bought the V-max's - and found that they are so short that even with only 1/8th of an inch in the case, the cartridge is still stupid-looking short - and of course there are no recommended loads for that combination so I worked up a load that averaged 4202 fps - SD 17 - 41.7 grains of Varget - COL 2.269 - Fed LR primers. Energy drops fast with that little pill - and I say that a bullet should have 600 ft lbs of energy to do a deer - if place right. My bullets would be less than that by 200 yards - so I needed to keep a shot within that - also, the short cartridge length is not so accurate.
Late in the season - now very cold - which shouldn't affect Varget too much - when I had the opportunity to take a shot at the little eight-point in the picture. The shot is from high up - and the gun is zeroed at 200 (my excuses for the shot being high) - it wasn't windy - I could hear him talking - and he too went to the table by way of the slow cooker.
I estimated that all the meat damaged in those three deer would weigh two pounds or less - no heart damage - some backstrap damage.
Thanks for taking time to listen to an old guy - just talking.
canadian hunter312
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Brant County
22 cals will obviously take deer if you stay within their limits and i'd use one myself. the problem here is he was using a 35 gr bullet that was designed for varmints and i thought it was common knowledge in the hunting world that you want a bullet that stays together for penetration and better wound channel. varmint bullets can grenade on the surface or contact with bone which is why they're a very poor choice for large game. hence the "lucky" call made by another poster.
marksmanship rules? if you're a good shot and want to use gopher bullets on deer you'd be better off going for head/neck shots. you'd probably get more action after posting that thread
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
So, to make a long story short, you were attempting to experiment on how light of a bullet you could use before it became ineffective.
There's a 30 gr. bullet designed for the 22 Hornet available. I'd try that one next, you may receive your answer. Happy trailing.
I have not had the patience to read through 180+ posts on this subject, but if I could, I would use a .223 or .22-250 on deer. There's enough firepower there to do the job. I wouldn't be taking 300+ yard shots either though. Most deer I've taken in the last 20 years have been inside of 100 yards.
I would bet my left nut that a .22 rimfire has taken the majority of the deer killed in this province in the last 100 or so years. Not saying it is right, just saying.
I would bet my left nut that a .22 rimfire has taken the majority of the deer killed in this province in the last 100 or so years. Not saying it is right, just saying.
There is no way that a .22lr can penetrate the armour plating hidden under the fur of whitetails. You must use at least a .30 cal, anything else proves that you are an idiot and you dont know balistics.
Polar Man
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
So, to make a long story short, you were attempting to experiment on how light of a bullet you could use before it became ineffective.
There's a 30 gr. bullet designed for the 22 Hornet available. I'd try that one next, you may receive your answer. Happy trailing.
Looks like he is going for velocity, with good results. But then you don't seem to care much for results, do you?
Yes 223 can take a deer, so can 22LR.
Above we have a guy that insists on going to lighter & lighter varmint bullets...why to see how light he can go?
You all claim 223s can do the job with proper bullets but above posts show what happens if it's legal! And you would have thought this guy would know better
Now imagine what would happen if "off the street joe" is allowed to hunt with said equipment!
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
A .223 or a .22-250 has about the same terminal performance as a .243, which is why I don't like the .243 much as a big game cartridge, if we define big game as game weighing much over 100 pounds. The argument that there is less damage with small bores is my point as well, yet my position has softened to where I no longer think that minimum caliber regulations do much good. The Inuit have successfully used small bore rifles on everything up to the size of polar bears and walrus since the introduction of the .22 Hornet, but comparing the subsistence hunter with a sport hunter is unrealistic. The subsistence hunter might kill more game in a year than the sport hunter does over a lifetime, and his knowledge of what must be put where and his ability to do it, far exceeds the knowledge of the typical sport hunter.
The small bore is the gun for the expert, and to use a small bore effectively on big game requires an expert, rather than a novice or an indifferent marksman who is afraid of recoil. Joe average deer hunter is best served with cartridges between 6.5 and .30 caliber loaded with mid-weight bullets at moderate velocity when it comes to choosing a thunder stick.
If I was mandated to hunt big game with a small bore, I would load the ammo with TSXs, as IMHO this is the only North American made small bore bullet that suitable for big game. If I had access to GS Customs bullets, I would choose one of those as well. The guys around here that take caribou and seal with .223s and .22-250s most often load 55 gr Remington bulk bullets, but these little pills have left a bad taste in my mouth since the days of the .30/06 Accelerators.
The small bore is the gun for the expert, and to use a small bore effectively on big game requires an expert, rather than a novice or an indifferent marksman who is afraid of recoil. Joe average deer hunter is best served with cartridges between 6.5 and .30 caliber loaded with mid-weight bullets at moderate velocity when it comes to choosing a thunder stick.
If I was mandated to hunt big game with a small bore, I would load the ammo with TSXs, as IMHO this is the only North American made small bore bullet that suitable for big game. If I had access to GS Customs bullets, I would choose one of those as well. The guys around here that take caribou and seal with .223s and .22-250s most often load 55 gr Remington bulk bullets, but these little pills have left a bad taste in my mouth since the days of the .30/06 Accelerators.
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
In regard to Inuit hunters, you have to keep one very important aspect in mind; the terrain where they hunt is completely void of cover and a wounded animal has pretty much zero chance of escape. This is the sole reason they get away with using such small calibers.
Yes 223 can take a deer, so can 22LR.
Above we have a guy that insists on going to lighter & lighter varmint bullets...why to see how light he can go?
You all claim 223s can do the job with proper bullets but above posts show what happens if it's legal! And you would have thought this guy would know better
You're kidding right? Maybe we should only allow single shots at first too. In fact I think anyone east of Saskatchewan should be limited to short range cartridges like the 45-70, 32 Special etc because they rarely ever need to shoot past 100yds, and faster cartridges deflect in the bush..blah blah blah.
Legislate the many to control the few? Based on wives tales?
And Joe Public is always an idiot?
Shake your head Senior, they can run out and wound deer with 25-20's and 6x45's and 9mm carbines at all the same ranges if they want to.
For that matter I could by 55gr .243 and go wack does.
Get the point yet fellas? Legislating it doesn't make sense and all your arguments have been based on opinion and emotion. Give it up already.
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- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
On the contrary, seals, walrus, and beluga whales can get to cover very quickly, and cannot be followed up once there. If they are not killed quickly or if they sink before being harpooned, they cannot be recovered.
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
Which happens quite often. The guys I know who hunt walrus use an old 458 winmag and 303's and they lose a few, part of the game. Seals are shot in the head. Generally there's a few guys in the boat and everyone opens fire, this is especially true for walrus and beluga.
My reference to no cover was more in regard to those animals on land.
Yes your right
I am very torn on this issue.
I agree you can't legislate common sense.
But we do have speed limits!!
& above we have what we would have thought was an experienced hunter quite willing to use 35gn V-max on deer when clearly better options were open to him! What was the point of going to more & more fragmentable bullets till he gets a failure...on a deer!
I mean would you personally use 35gn V-max??
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
A big game bullet needs to have a mechanism to limit expansion to about the front third to half of its length and this is important for a couple of reasons. First, the bullet needs to have a linear axis to spin around in order to over come the yaw which is imposed when the nose of the bullet impacts a denser than air target. Secondly, the amount of expansion needs to be controlled so that A) the bullet is not destabilized by long wings extending from it and thereby upsetting its center of gravity and B) excessive expansion does not prevent sufficient penetration.
I don't like explosive bullets for big game, yet they are popular with some. A Square's Lion Load is designed to grenade once sufficient penetration is achieved. But arranging this to happen under all circumstances has proved difficult to arrange, and there has been an incident or two where the bullet exploded on a cat's teeth at very close range.
Berger has had wonderful success with his match bullets, but his idea of a game bullet doesn't work for me; then again I'm not a long range hunter. For every success that he can produce at long range, a close range failure is waiting to happen. This idea that the bullet works better when it goes to pieces inside the body cavity of a big game animal is flawed.
A bullet works best when it holds together and exits. If the shot is good, the damage along the path of the bullet produces massive bleeding and tissue destruction along with broken bones. If the shot ain't so hot, it produces a better blood trail than a bullet which doesn't exit.
I don't like explosive bullets for big game, yet they are popular with some. A Square's Lion Load is designed to grenade once sufficient penetration is achieved. But arranging this to happen under all circumstances has proved difficult to arrange, and there has been an incident or two where the bullet exploded on a cat's teeth at very close range.
Berger has had wonderful success with his match bullets, but his idea of a game bullet doesn't work for me; then again I'm not a long range hunter. For every success that he can produce at long range, a close range failure is waiting to happen. This idea that the bullet works better when it goes to pieces inside the body cavity of a big game animal is flawed.
A bullet works best when it holds together and exits. If the shot is good, the damage along the path of the bullet produces massive bleeding and tissue destruction along with broken bones. If the shot ain't so hot, it produces a better blood trail than a bullet which doesn't exit.
leveractionjunkie
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Kamloops, BC
Well I could bring myself to read all 20 pages of what I am sure was an exciting argument but will say this. Bartell did it with a 221Fireball so any regular mortal must beable to do it with a .223. Proper bullet choice used of course.
As to the OP, further discussion has been deemed necessary with other options such as shotgun to address the specific issue in some parts of Sask.
Truthfully shotgun hunting is a better fit. Sad news for some of the aggressive posters in this thread, I did not, have not and will not lose any credibility over this
If you want you can now argue over the merits and ethicality (awesome word alert) of using shotguns on these whitetail bullet proof monsters
Truthfully shotgun hunting is a better fit. Sad news for some of the aggressive posters in this thread, I did not, have not and will not lose any credibility over this
If you want you can now argue over the merits and ethicality (awesome word alert) of using shotguns on these whitetail bullet proof monsters
