What the heck do I have ?????

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boltonscouter

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I picked up about 73 pieces of these in a bulk buy of various .224 bullets for reloading. Most were in their original boxes so were easy to ID but these are VERY different. lead front/nose with appears to be copper base
The measure .224" diameter
Vary from .465" to .495" in length depending on how rounded the nose is
They weigh 43.2 to 43.7 grains with most coming in at 43.5 grains
I'm sure someone on CGN knows what they are, what they're good for and if theyr're rare or worth anything substantial....... can I even shoot them? They don't look like any of the other HPBT .224 bullets I'm used to working with. My instincts are telling me maybe a pistol bullet of some sort?

IMG_1704.jpg
 
Those aren't the original Vernon Speer bullets made in the chicken coop back in the day are they? Jacketed in spent .22 rimfire casing? Anything on the base?

Edit, the chicken coop came from his brother #### Speer, one of the founders of CCI... damn mixed up memory. Still not sure of the bullet for sure.

Bet Bruce knows...
 
No markings on the base. They are all very clean, consistent and professionally made looking. I have no idea where they came from or were made. They are consistent enough for me to think they are factory of some sort. They don'e look like something that would come out of someones basement or garage from casting their own but then I wouldn't know.

I checked my Lyman 49th ed and the closest I see might be 5.7x28mm FN but the bullet itself doesn't look the right shape or configutation for what my manual shows. They're showing Hornady Vmax and Sierra soft points. Nothing that looks like these.
 
They are quite likely home swaged , using comercial "half" jackets and a swc nose punch in the swaging die . I have seen these profiles before but cannot recal what / who the maker of the die set was . As far as something that "came out of the garage " I swage some very nice looking , not to mention great shooting rebated boat tail 12 degree open tip 7mm spire point bullets and if I want or need I can make myself some that weigh 146.5 ( or whatever) grains ! Try and buy them at the store
 
blaser.306 said:
They are quite likely home swaged , using comercial "half" jackets and a swc nose punch in the swaging die . I have seen these profiles before but cannot recal what / who the maker of the die set was . As far as something that "came out of the garage " I swage some very nice looking , not to mention great shooting rebated boat tail 12 degree open tip 7mm spire point bullets and if I want or need I can make myself some that weigh 146.5 ( or whatever) grains ! Try and buy them at the store
Click to expand...

Interesting. Glad to hear it has some other people scratching their heads too! The bases look like copper, not brass so I don't think they are old 22 casings made into bases. Like I said, I know nothing of casting / swaging etc or what kind of quality that can be turned out at home so it is very possible these aren't factory and you may be correct. I think the 1/2 jacket concept makes sense. From what you say it sounds like I am impressed with what a home operator can produce in the way of projectiles. Never heard of using primers in casting but like I say, I know nothing. Gas checks .... possibly but again, I don't know enough.

I'm still curious ..... what would these have been loaded into / fired out of? Should I even attempt to consider shooting these from a .223 rifle? My instincts tell me no since I have no load data to reference as a starting point and I just don't need them since I have plenty of nice SMK HPBT's to load. I currently regard these as a curiosity more than anything else.
 
unstableryan said:
Those aren't the original Vernon Speer bullets made in the chicken coop back in the day are they? Jacketed in spent .22 rimfire casing? Anything on the base?

Edit, the chicken coop came from his brother #### Speer, one of the founders of CCI... damn mixed up memory. Still not sure of the bullet for sure.

Bet Bruce knows...
Click to expand...

Yep, swagged.
But I see some others beat me to it.
 
Hmmm.......... seems I learn something new every day on CGN! I wouldn't have figured these for rifle bullets. Would the load data for 45 grain Vmax be in the approximate ball park? Seems to me going from memory (don't have the manual handy) that the velocity is well above 2000 fps for those however.
Chances are I'll probably never use these anyways since my rifle loves the vmax & SMK's :D so if it aint broke .... don't fix it!
:cheers:
 
If I were you I would either keep them, or make some trail boss (or similar) reduced loads with them. They aren't going to perform like your regular bullets at mach 3 so why not make some mach 1 or 1.5 "quiet" ammo.
 
blaser.306 said:
They are quite likely home swaged , using comercial "half" jackets and a swc nose punch in the swaging die . I have seen these profiles before but cannot recal what / who the maker of the die set was . As far as something that "came out of the garage " I swage some very nice looking , not to mention great shooting rebated boat tail 12 degree open tip 7mm spire point bullets and if I want or need I can make myself some that weigh 146.5 ( or whatever) grains ! Try and buy them at the store
Click to expand...

Agreed.

I remember as a kid seeing in my father's books ads for this stuff. You could buy the swaging kits, lead 'rope' and jackets. IIRC they were for .38 calibre pistol bullets. I do remember the jackets coming in different lengths and different nose shaped being available.
 
unstableryan said:
If I were you I would either keep them, or make some trail boss (or similar) reduced loads with them. They aren't going to perform like your regular bullets at mach 3 so why not make some mach 1 or 1.5 "quiet" ammo.
Click to expand...

Interesting concept that might be worth investigating? Where would I even get starting load data? Couldn't I do the same with my SMK HPBT's too?
 
I don't know why some of you guys are running down swagged bullets, referring to them as being inferior, or from a by-gone era.
I know people who do a lot of shooting, who quit pouring bullets years ago, and went into swagging them. They claim better accuracy, plus no lubrication required. I've been given a sample of their swagged bullets to try and I like them.
If I was shooting a lot, like when I was shooting big revolver silhouette, I would definetely be swagging, over pouring bullets.
 
I do not understand where people get the idea that swaged bullets are inferior ? Does anyone know where and how Hornady,Sierra, Nosler etc. progectiles come from, I am willing to bet it aint the bullet fairy !!!
 
H4831 said:
I don't know why some of you guys are running down swagged bullets, referring to them as being inferior, or from a by-gone era.
I know people who do a lot of shooting, who quit pouring bullets years ago, and went into swagging them. They claim better accuracy, plus no lubrication required. I've been given a sample of their swagged bullets to try and I like them.
If I was shooting a lot, like when I was shooting big revolver silhouette, I would definetely be swagging, over pouring bullets.
Click to expand...


blaser.306 said:
I do not understand where people get the idea that swaged bullets are inferior ? Does anyone know where and how Hornady,Sierra, Nosler etc. progectiles come from, I am willing to bet it aint the bullet fairy !!!
Click to expand...

Gentlemen:
Just to be clear ........ I never said or insinuated they were inferior. Obviously I have much to learn & I'll be the first to admit all I have experience with are modern factory projectiles such as the Hornady Vmax and the SMK's and milsurp FMJ rounds. I have freely admitted I know NOTHING about casting or swaging. As far as a throw back to a bygone era ..... that was my assumption (apparently incorrect) and no insult was intended or implied. Actually in many respects I believe they don't make most things they way they used to and many modern goods are inferior to those of the past. My whole house is cluttered with antique furniture as opposed to modern chrome & glass or laminated chip board.
Having said that ...... if some of you might have some good starting load data for these using Varget or WC735 (what I have on hand) I'd be tempted to give them a try!
Edit .... I also have IMR4064 on hand if that's any good?
 
My Father used to copper-stuff and swag his own lead for .357. Once you get good at stuffing them, weight tolerances were very close. They were good enough for the silhouette matches with his T/C when he used to compete. I sold off most of the lead and tools but I still have several thousand jackets and cutters. For some guys, its an all year long hobby, not like they can't afford ammunition.

Here is more info for anyone interested:

ht tp://www.corbins.com/swaging.htm
 
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