Rails - Is the weight worth the accuracy?

L

lmar

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I own several AR's.

A couple of them have rails and the Norc M4 does not.

In the course of the last 3 months I have noticed a trend with people who have picked up the various AR's.

To a person - they all prefer the Norc M4.

When asked to elaborate they tell me:

a) It is lighter
b) It feels better.
c) You can move it around better (We were shooting at multiple targets).

Now I know these people can't tell a Norc Clone from a Tier 1 Jedi MK1 full out AR - so lets put that argument aside.
However, they do know what they like and they have no pre-conceived notions. None of them had shot a rifle before.

Question: In the search of the holly grail of accuracy (and accessories) have we pushed the AR platform too far past its intended use?

5 Newbies can't know more than the rest of us can they?

Thoughts and opinons please.

L
 
If you need them you need them. They were designed for a reason. Its just wether you need them for that reason or not.
 
are we talking about handguards? I was under the impression all the Norincos came with the flat topped upper. When it comes to accuracy if you are mounting optics, some type of railed handguard is an absolute must if thats where your optic is going to live. Maybe the Norc handguards have less play than my stag, or service weapons, but there is no way I would be able to get a repeatable zero with the stock ones.

Ive got an M4 RAS on my 16" stag, the only thing mounted to is it the VFG right now, but I appreciate the feel of a solid front end.
 
You can go from either extreme and everything in between. Would they have the same opinion if you took them to shoot those AR's? Some people really like a light gun, some a heavy one.

However a Railed forend doesn't have to be heavy either. Our 12" FF hand guard is only 12oz.

Personally I am not a fan of standard handguards. They're just not comfortable nor made for human hands. They offer no traction nor the ability to add even limited accessories. That being said though.. what's comfortable for me, may not be for another. And the only correct answer is; if it's comfortable in your hands, it's right.
 
Imar it's funny that you mentioned this topic about "rails". Yes the standard grey ribbed handguards are VERY comfortable to hold when shooting. But accuracy is something that rails and handguards shouldn't have any connection right?

Hard to say, I hear alot of stuff about barrel resonance (which I know jack about) and things like the difference between free floating handguards/rails and non-free floating.

I have personally experienced something out on the range with my AR and that is.... when I fire an AR with the standard handguards AND using a benchwrest, it seems to spray more than if I were to go on one knee shooting at 100 yards and holding the AR's front magwell and the accuracy is significantly improved...... I need more testing to see if this theory is correct.
 
EDX2308 said:
I have personally experienced something out on the range with my AR and that is.... when I fire an AR with the standard handguards AND using a benchwrest, it seems to spray more than if I were to go on one knee shooting at 100 yards and holding the AR's front magwell and the accuracy is significantly improved...... I need more testing to see if this theory is correct.
Click to expand...

It is. Pressure on handguard will push on the barrel.
 
lmar said:
I own several AR's.

A couple of them have rails and the Norc M4 does not.

In the course of the last 3 months I have noticed a trend with people who have picked up the various AR's.

To a person - they all prefer the Norc M4.

When asked to elaborate they tell me:

a) It is lighter
b) It feels better.
c) You can move it around better (We were shooting at multiple targets).

Now I know these people can't tell a Norc Clone from a Tier 1 Jedi MK1 full out AR - so lets put that argument aside.
However, they do know what they like and they have no pre-conceived notions. None of them had shot a rifle before.

Question: In the search of the holly grail of accuracy (and accessories) have we pushed the AR platform too far past its intended use?

5 Newbies can't know more than the rest of us can they?

Thoughts and opinons please.

L
Click to expand...

The problem with your test group is their lack of knowledge and experience. They like the "feel" but they don't understand what's necessary for a specific role.

The second issue is what seems to be a confusion between free float forends and rails.

A free float forend is absolutely necessary if you intend to squeeze every bit of accuracy out of the rifle. For action events or even service, its not required. However, the benefits of a solid free float forened don't stop with accuracy. A good FF forend offers protection for the gas tube and gas block. It offers better ventilation/cooling, it also offers greater comfort to the user under high round counts(not burning your hand). The ability to bolt on rails and mount accessories is but a small advantage when discussing FF forends. Are four railed forends necessary? Its a personal choice, and my opinion is that the majority don't need four rails. Rarely are all four ever used. They can add weight, and in some cases they can add a lot of weight over stock handguards.

As for accessories, the majority of users need very few. Outside of the MIL and possibly LE guys. A sling mount, and a light are all you really need. If a vert grip is your game then add it. That's it, three accessories tops. A lot of forend systems come with integral sling mounts which cuts down your add ons by one.

Obviously weight plays a role with regards to maneuverability and ease of use. The other key to this equation is technique. For those who feel the mag well is the best place to support the rifle, the additional weight of anything will wreak havoc with their ability to swing from target to target. An over weight rifle coupled with poor technique will net negative results. Carefully selected accessories and proper technique will mitigate the minor disadvantages incurred by adding accessories.

TDC
 
Hard to say if it is the handguard and rails that are causing the percieved differences between your rifles.

Are they equal barrel length and diameter?
Do your railed forends have accessories mounted?

All of these things are more likely to affect the handling more than whether you have a railed hand guard or not IMO.

As for needing to go with some time or free float forend or not depends on the type of shooting you do and the grip. I tend to grab the front of the mag well for off hand rest the mag for kneeling and prone. This means my hand guard never gets external pressure to pass on to the barrel.

No all shooters like the magwell grip and there are arguments against it. If I were to switch to a more forward grip I would more seriously consider going with a free float hand guard. For me though, I would go rail less or with add on rails so I can put them where I need/want them. I don't think I will ever need 4 rails.
 
I like the FF feature of a rails. Also the increased cooling and better accuracy potential. Plus if you want to hang a lot of crap on your rifle they are handy. I don't like the stock handguards, since I've put a DD 7" rail on my M4 Sabre Defence I love the feel and look and functionality.
 
TDC said:
The problem with your test group is their lack of knowledge and experience. They like the "feel" but they don't understand what's necessary for a specific role.

The second issue is what seems to be a confusion between free float forends and rails.

A free float forend is absolutely necessary if you intend to squeeze every bit of accuracy out of the rifle. For action events or even service, its not required. However, the benefits of a solid free float forened don't stop with accuracy. A good FF forend offers protection for the gas tube and gas block. It offers better ventilation/cooling, it also offers greater comfort to the user under high round counts(not burning your hand). The ability to bolt on rails and mount accessories is but a small advantage when discussing FF forends. Are four railed forends necessary? Its a personal choice, and my opinion is that the majority don't need four rails. Rarely are all four ever used. They can add weight, and in some cases they can add a lot of weight over stock handguards.

As for accessories, the majority of users need very few. Outside of the MIL and possibly LE guys. A sling mount, and a light are all you really need. If a vert grip is your game then add it. That's it, three accessories tops. A lot of forend systems come with integral sling mounts which cuts down your add ons by one.

Obviously weight plays a role with regards to maneuverability and ease of use. The other key to this equation is technique. For those who feel the mag well is the best place to support the rifle, the additional weight of anything will wreak havoc with their ability to swing from target to target. An over weight rifle coupled with poor technique will net negative results. Carefully selected accessories and proper technique will mitigate the minor disadvantages incurred by adding accessories.

TDC
Click to expand...

Very good advice.

I would suggest one take a carbine course or two to find out what's 'really needed' for them before buying all kinds of potentially unneeded and heavy accessories.
 
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