target distance and grouping

[explorin2]

I was wondering what is a common distance for pistol target shooting, and what sort of grouping does one consider good. I recently purchased a 9mm and took it to the range a few times and was surprised at how bad of a shooter I was... wasnt may holes in the target when the day was over. A big difference from shooting my 22-260 when it comes to placing a bullet on a target at any distance at all. I've realized shooting 3/4" grouping at a 100 yards is not a reasonable goal with my 9mm, and curious as to what is realistic.

 

[EdGCNM]

The thing with shooting a handgun is that the subconscious tends to anticipate the gun going off and mess up the best of your conscious intentions. The single biggest problem in shooting a handgun well is anticipation.

How you hold the gun, using two hands or one, how you stand, how you apply pressure to the gun, where your trigger finger is on the trigger -- all those have a tiny impact on shot grouping compared to anticipation. They are what most everybody talks about -- because men don't talk about emotions -- but don't be fooled: it's a mental game and it's your emotions that screw up your shooting.

It takes a lot of practice for most people to learn to have enough control emotionally to not anticipate the gun going off. You CAN learn it, but it's not easy.

Start by applying a constantly increasing pressure to the trigger slowly enough that you can't anticipate the gun going off because you don't KNOW when it's going to go off. I guarantee if you learn to do that -- and not to start out well and then snatch the trigger at the last instant anyway -- your groups will become dramatically smaller.

- DO watch the front sight and keep it aligned with the rear sight. Alignment to the target is not as important as you might think. DON'T focus on the target.
- DON'T blink when the gun goes off. Keep your eye(s) OPEN. If you blink, you anticipated, simple as that. You knew when the gun was going bang.
- DO pay attention to your emotions in the instant before the gun goes off. Recognize how anticipation feels and work to avoid it.

And, yes, I'm a bullseye shooter. I shoot a .45 one-handed at 50 yards occasionally and can hit the target pretty darned well, after years of trying. I also do two-handed action shooting, and can shoot pretty darned well fast, too.

 

[Keller]

Depends on the shooter, as a beginner just getting on paper at 25m would be pretty good.

I've been shooting pistols for years now and still have difficulty getting an 8" group at 25m. Practice practice practice, that's about all you can do. You need to develop a steady hand so stay away from caffeine on range days.

 

[explorin2]

thanks for the replies ....

 

[Dsiwy]

2-3" at 20m "most guns can do"

 

[Denka]

any good books or training are there to get thing running a bit faster with proper understanding?

 

[mmcintyre1220]

Well considering am I new to handgun shooting as well I have to agree with the whole emotion and anticipation statement. When I first put a few rounds down range in my beretta 92 I had 2 full mags in about a 1-1.5 inch grouping. Then it when for a ####. I started flinching and slapping the trigger, then my grip became bad and my sight allingment was off. Handgun shooting IMO is the hardest type of shooting especially if you are a shotgun type of guy. Again it is different for everyone but for me I picked up rifle and shotgun shooting naturally. Handgun is going to need Practice Practice Practice. One great drill I have found to work for trigger pull is to put a empty case on top of the front sight, bring then gun up get the allingment correct and pull the trigger. It should not fall off. For flinching (anticipation of recoil) I have found it helpful to have a friend pack my mag with snap caps and live rounds. You will look like and idiot and be very surprised what this will reveal when you pull the trigger you snap you gun down and nothing ever happened. Every time I go out to shoot handgun I have days were I am shooting great and days were I get myself so frustrated, but I keep all my targets and can slowly notice even on my off days my groupings are improving. I cant stress enough about practice. As a new handgunner I understand how big of a challenge it can be. I also am considering buying a .22 just to practice technique with as it won't cost me nearly as much as my 9mm or 45 will in ammo.

 

[Technology Direct]

Well considering am I new to handgun shooting as well I have to agree with the whole emotion and anticipation statement. When I first put a few rounds down range in my beretta 92 I had 2 full mags in about a 1-1.5 inch grouping. Then it when for a s**t. I started flinching and slapping the trigger, then my grip became bad and my sight allingment was off. Handgun shooting IMO is the hardest type of shooting especially if you are a shotgun type of guy. Again it is different for everyone but for me I picked up rifle and shotgun shooting naturally. Handgun is going to need Practice Practice Practice. One great drill I have found to work for trigger pull is to put a empty case on top of the front sight, bring then gun up get the allingment correct and pull the trigger. It should not fall off. For flinching (anticipation of recoil) I have found it helpful to have a friend pack my mag with snap caps and live rounds. You will look like and idiot and be very surprised what this will reveal when you pull the trigger you snap you gun down and nothing ever happened. Every time I go out to shoot handgun I have days were I am shooting great and days were I get myself so frustrated, but I keep all my targets and can slowly notice even on my off days my groupings are improving. I cant stress enough about practice. As a new handgunner I understand how big of a challenge it can be. I also am considering buying a .22 just to practice technique with as it won't cost me nearly as much as my 9mm or 45 will in ammo.

Much of what you described is what happened to me as well. Including the decent groups when I started and the deterioration from there. I know there is a flinch undermining my efforts.

Sadly I do not get nearly enough practice but hope to address that shortly. The .22 is a great idea and my GSG makes for inexpensive practice.

 

[redryder]

What type of shooting are we talking about? Bullseye? where you shoot one handed with arm outstretched or two handed CSI style shooting? Standing? Sitting? Hands rested? Sandbags? Many ways to hit a target at 25 yds. Two hands, standing, slow fire, i think you should at least hit the paper 50% of the time and with practice put most shots into a 6" circle.

 

[misanthropist]

Not being a bullseye shooter, my USUAL interest is groups around 3-4", at whatever range I'm shooting at, but tolerating up to about 8" groups if I am going fast.

The best way I have heard this described is "fist sized if possible, outstretched hand sized if necessary".

At 10m I don't have too much of a problem doing 3" groups and can probably fairly reliably keep it around 2". At 25 I don't find it all that easy to do 6" groups but I probably can 80-90% of the time.


But then I shoot glocks and am more concerned with "effective" than "pretty". I never measure my pistol groups and I don't shoot slowly except as part of accuracy drills, so it's pretty possible that I could do 6" at 25m 100% of the time. I rarely slow down enough to check, so I am just trying to be realistic without overestimating my capabilities here.


Anyway, as you've discovered, shooting pistols well is a lot harder than shooting rifles well. Start with your target around 5-7m and go from there. Trigger press is 80% of the game and all the standard technique stuff is really just methods of getting a good press while keeping your gun pointed in the right direction.

Balance an empty case on your front sight and press the trigger on an empty chamber. When the case doesn't move, you're doing it right.


Grip the gun right:
1) get your strong hand as high on the gun as you can. This will help with controlling recoil. Point your thumb straight up.

2) take your support hand and hold it straight out. Now rotate it 45 degrees and point your thumb straight forward. Wrap this around your strong hand. Now lay your strong hand thumb along the weak hand thumb.

This will give you maximum traction with the gun. If it feels awkward, that means you are doing it right. You'll get used to it. Keep your hands high on the gun.

Now line up your sights on the target. Don't worry about precision or whatever. Just get on target. Zen your head out like there is no gun and just tune out on that front sight. Press the trigger like the empty brass was still there on the front sight. Forget that it's going to go off...ignore the fact that you are making bang sounds, just erase your brain and mechanically press the trigger as smoothly and calmly as possible.

If you do this, I guarantee you will come back and say, "actually, shooting a pistol is pretty easy."

 

[BCRider]

If you're missing the paper with a lot of your shots then you likely have a good anticipatory flinch happening. Kicking out a flinch isn't easy.

Another option is that you may be just plain gripping too hard. Your grip should be about the same as a good firm but friendly handshake where you're not intent on crushing the other guy's hand. If you over tension your grip then it becomes difficult to move your trigger finger without the rest of your fingers and wrist moving as well.

Contrary to what misanthropist suggests I'd have to say that shooting a handgun well is one of the more difficult things we can do in shooting. But not because it's hard to shoot the gun itself. The difficulty is all in the head and centers around teaching yourself to ignore the upcoming BANG! Such a Zen like mental state is not as easy to achieve as some may think. When you get it all right and your results are good there's still that darn "flinch" waiting in the back of your mind and wanting to take over control. Keeping that devil at bay isn't all that easy. It takes regular practice and mental discipline.

But aside from that I really like that list he typed out on how to hold the gun and the rest.

One trick that I've found helpful to achieving this is to not think about pulling the trigger to the BANG! Instead concentrate on pulling the trigger fully to the travel stop limit, hold it there for the recoil to subside and then release it with the same care as you pulled it in the first place. By focusing on pulling the trigger THROUGH the BANG! youi'll learn to ignore the gun's upcoming recoil and make it easier to focus on the sights and the trigger to the exclusion of everything else.

As for what is a decent group? Well, I've got old guy eyes and old guy nerves so I can't manage groups as tight as some. But I'm dissapointed with myself if I can't put all 6 or 10 rounds, depending on which gun I'm shooting, into a 3 inch or less group at around 12 yards. That's slow bullseye shooting. For my match shooting practice I'm OK with 5 out of 6 or 8 out of 10 being in the Alpha or -0 center zones of the IPSC or IDPA targets for fast shooting at the same distance.

 

[Dsiwy]

Trigger finger placement is very important too

Most new shooters place the trigger in the joint of the finger "this is wrong" The trigger should rest on the palm of your finger tip.

 

[Ganderite]

I get much better results with 2 hands now. Years ago I shot one handed and got groups as good as what it now takes 2 hands to do.

The secret is some coaching in the begining so that when you practice you are practicing doing it right. Learning how to break a shot is critical. These are 2 handed groups at 20 yards.

 

[Denka]

Do you mind sharind some coaching?

I get much better results with 2 hands now. Years ago I shot one handed and got groups as good as what it now takes 2 hands to do.

The secret is some coaching in the begining so that when you practice you are practicing doing it right. Learning how to break a shot is critical. These are 2 handed groups at 20 yards.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

Some nice guns and good shooting Ganderite. A 'few' years back when I was hot & heavy into paper punching and bullseye handgun shooting, one of my best off hand targets with a revolver was this.

10 shots, 20yds, Speer 148gr HBWC in 357 cases with I 'believe' 3.5grs of Bullseye.

The revolver is my early production 6" Colt Python.

Another revolver that has somewhat suprised me in how well it shoots with anything, cast or jacketed, heavy or light loads is my 500 S&W. . Admittedly, these targets were shot from a rest load testing, 25m.

 

[easyrider604]

I was wondering what is a common distance for pistol target shooting, and what sort of grouping does one consider good....

On a good day, with either my 6 inch 686 (with Aimpoint 3000 red dot, a 22 year old antique) or 6 inch GP100 standard iron sights, shooting homecast 158 grain LSWC from Lee TL mold over 4.5 grains 700X (+P 1,000 fos), two handed Weaver hold, double action, I can get 2-3 inch groups at 7 meters, 3-4 inches at 15 meters and 5-6 inches at 25 meters.

Surprisingly, results shooting benched and single action are about the same

Must be a vision problem.

 

[prproulx]

A handgun is NOT a precision weapon. It is designed for up close fighting. If you can hit a two foot square target from five yards or closer under duress you have won.

 

[BCRider]

A handgun is NOT a precision weapon. It is designed for up close fighting. If you can hit a two foot square target from five yards or closer under duress you have won.

You're far too easy to please....

IPSC and IDPA shooters consistently do far better than this while under the duress of an RO with a timer in their hand. And as Ganderite shows us the guns themselves are capable of much, much better.

Frankly I consider 2 foot round at 5 or less yards to be "blind panic with eyes firmly scrunched closed shooting".

 

[Johnn Peterson]

A handgun is NOT a precision weapon. It is designed for up close fighting. If you can hit a two foot square target from five yards or closer under duress you have won.

I disagree. Although, it may have been 'originally' designed for close up use, it has evolved into a very precise and very accurate form of firearm. Inaccuracy is more a result of the lack of skill of the person behind it than the capabilities of the firearm itself. 'Under duress' very few firearms are, 'precise'.

 

[misanthropist]

Man, that is a terrible accuracy standard.

Under duress, I would be good with a one-foot circle at 10m. If the best you can do is four times worse than that, do everyone a favour and use long guns to defend yourself.

A two foot square is substantially wider than a human torso. If that's the best you can do, you have about a 30% chance of missing an attacker entirely, at 15 feet, assuming they're standing still and facing you head on.

If your goal is defensive shooting, then under duress you must be able to hit the vital zone on a moving human being. That is a hell of a lot smaller than a two foot square. It is a hell of a lot smaller than two square feet! It's about 64 square inches on an adult male, moving.

I do agree that a handgun is not an inherently precise weapon...that is why I do not shoot for group size with my handguns. I am not that concerned about tiny groups; I simply go at a speed that allows me to make (roughly) headshots at 25m.

If you want to think in terms of defensive shooting, then the critical measurements are things like the FASTest. Personally I don't think I have gotten under 5.5s although I have had some runs around that time with a Glock 20. But even that requires moderate accuracy throughout.