Black Powder Loads in a Marlin 1895

Jacko832

Jacko832

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Hello all,

I will be acquiring a Marlin 1895GBL in 45-70 govt soon and I am curious about shooting black powder loads in it. Let me just make it clear that the majority of the loads I will put through this rifle will be modern smokeless loads but it would be nice to shoot some smoking BP loads every now and then for fun and effect.

In my searches I have come across the general info about shooting black powder: 45-70 was originally developed with black powder and to clean firearms and brass thoroughly after shooting to avoid corrosion. I'm hoping some of you could provide some info on black powder performance specifically in a Marlin 1895 and what the clean up is like afterward. Is it similar to cleaning a rifle after shooting corrosive surplus ammo?
 
Reloading black powder cartridges is rewarding but quite a bit different then smokeless. Your bullet should be cast very soft, have BP lube on it, and have a crimp groove in the right place. Powder should be drop tubed or vibrated after dropping and should fill the case to the bottom of the bullet, with NO AIR SPACE, seat bullet and crimp. You can also experiment with some extra compression but use your expander die or some such, don't use the soft bullet to compress the powder. Enjoy!
Black powder loads can be very accurate if done right as the ignition causes the soft bullet to fill the bore best resulting in great accuracy, hardcast bullets with smokeless lube don't give you that and the wrong lube can make cleanup a real chore.
 
For bore cleanup, stay away from anything petroleum based. I myself use Windex with Vinegar (NOT ammonia), and Ballistol for bore dressing. Other shooters I know use G-96, Shiloh Creek solvent, rubbing alcohol, Thompson Center BP solvent, Bore butter, Kroil (for lead removal) and other crazy concotions I won't get into. The nice thing about the Marlins is you can strip the bolt out and clean from the chamber end.

Brass should be de-primed after firing and soaked in hot soapy water. Dawn works for me. Soak cases for an hour or so and shake container periodically. Drain, then cases can be set out to dry, or put directly into tumbler. I used to use corncob media, but switched to a rotary tumbler with ceramic media as soon as I could.

I find adding dish soap, and a pinch of citric acid powder (or splash of lemon juice) to the tumbler water works great. Some shooters use T.S.P. but I find it a tad harsh. Let tumble for 2 or 3 hours. Sometimes the water needs to be changed. Drain water from cases and media, then separate cases from media to dry.
 
You could do some loads with Blackhorn 209....It doesn't smoke to the extent that BP, but still gives the BP effect, and makes clean up a sinch.
 
BP & Pb

ben hunchak said:
Reloading black powder cartridges is rewarding but quite a bit different then smokeless. Your bullet should be cast very soft, have BP lube on it, and have a crimp groove in the right place. Powder should be drop tubed or vibrated after dropping and should fill the case to the bottom of the bullet, with NO AIR SPACE, seat bullet and crimp. You can also experiment with some extra compression but use your expander die or some such, don't use the soft bullet to compress the powder. Enjoy!
Black powder loads can be very accurate if done right as the ignition causes the soft bullet to fill the bore best resulting in great accuracy, hardcast bullets with smokeless lube don't give you that and the wrong lube can make cleanup a real chore.
Click to expand...

This is also very interesting to me...
Sorry to hijack, but how soft is soft Ben?...are we talking pure Pb or could one get away with straight WW??, (which by no coincidence I have plenty of).....a 50/50 mix of WW and pure perhaps?:confused:
 
As to performance in a Marlin 1895: in Sam Fadala's book "Black Powder Loading Manual" he uses 67 grs (by volume) of FFg black powder with a 405 gr Remington JSP bullet.
Muzzle velocity = 1231 fps. Muzzle energy = 1363 fpe.
 
Bassmaster said:
This is also very interesting to me...
Sorry to hijack, but how soft is soft Ben?...are we talking pure Pb or could one get away with straight WW??, (which by no coincidence I have plenty of).....a 50/50 mix of WW and pure perhaps?:confused:
Click to expand...

Wheel weights should work fine but they'll be a hair hard. For most BP loads with cast bullets we run anywhere between 20:1 to 30:1 (lead to tin). Depending on where you are you can get pre-alloyed lead from Canada Metal which makes life way easier than cleaning wheel weights or alloying lead and tin.
 
Thanks for the info guys, it's really appreciated. I'm happy to see that it is possible and has the potential for some good accuracy.

Do most reloading manuals have black powder loads published in them or do you have to pick up a specific one? I'd check my speer and sierra manuals but I'm away form home right now. Also, is there a significant difference in performance between FFg and FFFg powder. I understand the physical differences between the powders but I'm curious about the loads themselves.

I know that I still have a lot to learn about loading black powder but I'm sure my uncle will be able to guide me through the process as he's been doing it for many years.
 
I've run 30:1 alloy through my Guide Gun. Just a hair too soft when cycling and ejecting through the action. I am meaning to try 20 or 16 to 1. Original alloy for the Gould bullet I have was 16:1 for use on game. Wheelweights prove too brittle and will explode inside an animal as I have been told by those with experience.
 
Jacko832 said:
....Do most reloading manuals have black powder loads published in them or do you have to pick up a specific one? ......
Click to expand...

It would be a rare manual that has reloading data for black powder.

Besides, as Ben mentioned above IT IS CRITICAL THAT YOU FILL THE CASE ! ! ! ! So there's no real "data" other than "fill to capacity". Although there's some small fudge room on the amount of compression you give it. The issue being that black powder MUST NOT HAVE ANY AIRSPACE ! ! ! Any airspace at all will cause the pressure to spike higher than permissable and could be dangerous. BP is not at all like smokeless powder in this regard.

So the only "loading data" would be a choice of FFg or FFFg and bullet weights along with the velocities produced by these combos.

It's so important to avoid an airspace that it needs to be stressed that you can't even just pour the amount of powder in from a measure using a short funnel. The loose packing that results will settle and result in an airgap during handling. The proper method to pack the amount of powder into the case is to use a long metal drop tube. By dropping the powder down a 3 foot long tube it packs in much more densely. And even there it's not uncommon for the bullet to compress it another 1/16 to 1/8 inch when seating.

For heavier compressions Ben's advice to use a neck sizer die makes a lot of sense too.
 
BCRider said:
It would be a rare manual that has reloading data for black powder.

Besides, as Ben mentioned above IT IS CRITICAL THAT YOU FILL THE CASE ! ! ! ! So there's no real "data" other than "fill to capacity". Although there's some small fudge room on the amount of compression you give it. The issue being that black powder MUST NOT HAVE ANY AIRSPACE ! ! ! Any airspace at all will cause the pressure to spike higher than permissable and could be dangerous. BP is not at all like smokeless powder in this regard.

So the only "loading data" would be a choice of FFg or FFFg and bullet weights along with the velocities produced by these combos.

It's so important to avoid an airspace that it needs to be stressed that you can't even just pour the amount of powder in from a measure using a short funnel. The loose packing that results will settle and result in an airgap during handling. The proper method to pack the amount of powder into the case is to use a long metal drop tube. By dropping the powder down a 3 foot long tube it packs in much more densely. And even there it's not uncommon for the bullet to compress it another 1/16 to 1/8 inch when seating.

For heavier compressions Ben's advice to use a neck sizer die makes a lot of sense too.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. Doesn't seem to complicated to figure out loads then just that one must pay great attention when actually loading the cases.

I read somewhere that if one uses FFFg you can load the "original" load of 70 grains in the case. Something to look a little more into I guess.
 
Jacko832 said:
Thanks for the info guys, it's really appreciated. I'm happy to see that it is possible and has the potential for some good accuracy.

Do most reloading manuals have black powder loads published in them or do you have to pick up a specific one? I'd check my speer and sierra manuals but I'm away form home right now. Also, is there a significant difference in performance between FFg and FFFg powder. I understand the physical differences between the powders but I'm curious about the loads themselves.

I know that I still have a lot to learn about loading black powder but I'm sure my uncle will be able to guide me through the process as he's been doing it for many years.
Click to expand...

My Hodgdon Data Manual #25 has both Pyrodex and black powder loads.

The Lyman 47th Reloading Handbook has black powder data for the .45-70 and lead bullets.. When they give a "starting" load (ie 45.7 grs FFg with a 500 gr lead bullet) they say to use a 1/4" thick polyester fiber wad over the powder.

There are differences between the different size of black powder granulations.

Sam Fadala gives 1231 for 67 grs of FFg with 405 gr bullet.

Hodgdon says 57 grs FFFg gives 1300 fps with a 405 gr bullet and 70 grs of Fg = 1249fps with a 400 gr bullet.

Lyman says 70 grs FFg = 1268 fps with a 420 gr lead bullet (16,400 CUP).

Not much difference between Fg and FFg but FFFg seems to give higher velocity with less powder than FFg.
 
I have heard if the claims that a hard cast bullet can fragment inside an animal.
Havent seen it myself.

I have cast bullets out of hard lynotype alloys and they penetrate hugely!
415gr. .458dia, 45-70.

Absolutely drops everything I shoot at.

I wonder if some of these hard bullet fragmentations were the cause of casting inclusions?
It seems to me that casting harder alloys Make it harder to properly fill the mould when casting.

Any thoughts on this guys?
 
Short Knife Johnson said:
I've run 30:1 alloy through my Guide Gun. Just a hair too soft when cycling and ejecting through the action. I am meaning to try 20 or 16 to 1. Original alloy for the Gould bullet I have was 16:1 for use on game. Wheelweights prove too brittle and will explode inside an animal as I have been told by those with experience.
Click to expand...

Smokeless or BP? I've run 20:1 through my 1885 with smokeless loads (IMR3031) running around 1950 FPS. I get a bit of lead and if I were to back off the throttle a bit it would probably clear up.

Or are you having problems with it jamming when trying to feed?
 
All black powder. I find the 30:1 bullets in repeating rifles get pretty banged up. In my original 1886, the mixture strips out of the rifling. I shoot 30:1 in my single shots and have great success with both accuracy and minimal leading. With the old Lyman hollowpoint design, the ammuntion was advertised with 16:1 alloy.
 
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