45-70 3 ball Garrison load

unstableryan

unstableryan

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I know we have talked about it before, etc. But I did a search for like a year and a half and it came up with nothing.

I shoot a lot of 45-70. 200-500 a year. Just about all cast, with everything between 8gr of unique behind a 340 gr soft cast HP to 500gr with 38gr of IMR4198. 50 grains of 3031 fit behind anything ~450gr and less with amazing results.

A year or two ago, I cast a bunch of .458 round balls and made some 1, 2 and 3 ball loads. everything from 5gr unique behind 1 ball pushed down to the powder to 3 balls over 14gr.

I wish I took better notes but I only have the loads I tried, not the results. I remember everything was great though, no pressure signs.

I patched together the best I could in Quickload about a 2 and a half ball long bullet, seated mid on the top ball (1.350" bullet length and 1.225 seating depth) with 14 gr of unique, the highest load I tried with great results... and it showed a pressure max of 53,300 psi. I load enough 45-70 to know it was not that high. I usually aim for a ~35000 psi range and know what that feels like with 450gr of lead and this was nothing like it.

I know there's a lot of knowledge on here. I just bought a lee 4-20 pot and plan on casting a lot more, so this is a direction I want to play with. Any help is great. I like learning things on my own, but guidance is great.


Thanks

Ryan
 
Very interesting stuff Ryan, I also cast a lot for the 45-70 and I'm wondering if you weighed those round balls you cast and if so what did they weigh up to ?
And also what are you shooting them in ?
 
22" inch barreled microgroove Marlin 1895
I hated cast the first time I tried it. they were hard, bad lubed, undersized bullet barn 350's and just peeled lead off in my barrel at 1500-1600.

Since I have learned more, you can really blast some heavy metal down these things and they aren't hard to clean after a bit of knowledge
 
My hunting partner has the same/ similar rifle and it is a good cast bullet shooter so now I'm going to convince him to try your load. :).
If not I'll test it in my '86 Browning.
 
The only thing I have ever shot with one, besides beer cans and trees and stuff was a snowshoe hare.. Perfect body, perfect ears, looked like the front bit was cut off with one of those paper guillotine cutters... but I expect any bullet in a 45-70 will do that.

I noticed on a tree or two, etc that the 3 balls probably do more damage than 1 ball, shot three times. they stay relatively close together.

Now I am going to have to go shooting in the morning.. oh damn.
 
I do that too, on top of the powder wad, I wrap the inside of the cartridge with really thin cardboard. Then put the shot in that, seems to kinda help the donut a little.. :) No scientific testing though. I started doing this by buying a box of 3" .410 shells and just putting the components from the plastic shell into my brass casing. Works well enough, but I have a bag of 7.5 shot here and now I just make them with 8-10 grains of unique and I can't remember how much shot fits, but it's mild and safe. I don't think I have to resize the cases actually, but it's been a while.

A year or two ago I made 30-40 round ball loads and I want to try it again. I just wish I kept better notes.

p.s. your soft cast 500gr are monsters. Into dry seasoned larch @ ~1500-1600 they go about 14-15 inches and 3 test shots expanded to .869", .768" and .742". Now that would be in about the 4th deer though... :)
 
I didn't have any luck using 7.5 shot out of my Guide Gun. I did find that #4 lead in 410 wads (cut down a bit) on top of 12.5gr of Unique patterns decent enough out to 15 yards. No chance to test it on a grouse yet, but on paper it looks good.

I also cap the whole works with a 45cal gas check and seal the top with white glue.

This winter I will try the 3 ball loads - looks like fun for sure.:D


James



unstableryan said:
I do that too, on top of the powder wad, I wrap the inside of the cartridge with really thin cardboard. Then put the shot in that, seems to kinda help the donut a little.. :) No scientific testing though. I started doing this by buying a box of 3" .410 shells and just putting the components from the plastic shell into my brass casing. Works well enough, but I have a bag of 7.5 shot here and now I just make them with 8-10 grains of unique and I can't remember how much shot fits, but it's mild and safe. I don't think I have to resize the cases actually, but it's been a while.
Click to expand...
 
MY load is real simple...if I remember properly it's 12 gr. Trailboss then one .060" card wad...then 1 ounce of #8 shot then another .060 card wad and light crimp...note that for me these card wads are a tight fit in the case and have to be pushed/seated. With this and most other shot loads the pattern will never be great because of the rifling.
Unstableryman: I think that the 500 gr. cast soft, may be too much of a good thing!!
 
unstableryan said:
...I patched together the best I could in Quickload about a 2 and a half ball long bullet, seated mid on the top ball (1.350" bullet length and 1.225 seating depth) with 14 gr of unique, the highest load I tried with great results... and it showed a pressure max of 53,300 psi. I load enough 45-70 to know it was not that high....
Click to expand...

I've simulated similar results in Quickload with pistol cartridges using Unique. The pressure spike does not produce a corresponding spike in velocity, so you would not "feel" a big increae in recoil. In the cartridge I was playing with, Quickload estimated pressure jumped from 12,000 psi to over 30,000 psi with just a 0.2 gr increase in powder charge, and there was almost no increase in velocity.

In my pistol cartridges I found that seating the bullets further out lessened the problem. I would bet that you would find the same thing if you played with seating depth in Quickload.
 
jethunter said:
I've simulated similar results in Quickload with pistol cartridges using Unique. The pressure spike does not produce a corresponding spike in velocity, so you would not "feel" a big increae in recoil. In the cartridge I was playing with, Quickload estimated pressure jumped from 12,000 psi to over 30,000 psi with just a 0.2 gr increase in powder charge, and there was almost no increase in velocity.

In my pistol cartridges I found that seating the bullets further out lessened the problem. I would bet that you would find the same thing if you played with seating depth in Quickload.
Click to expand...

True, I do like seating pretty much everything out to where my gun likes it. Very true in my 6.5mm tikka, reducing the pressure I think a lot. It's hard to reduce seating depth when crimping lightly on the center of the front ball though.

Also, I have shot 14gr of unique and 3 balls before with no damage to the cases or primers. I really need a Chrony, this is witchcraft until I get one.

and someone asked about the balls sticking together? Doubt it, but even if they did, might be cool :) They are Alox'ed anyways.
 
unstableryan said:
I patched together the best I could in Quickload about a 2 and a half ball long bullet, seated mid on the top ball (1.350" bullet length and 1.225 seating depth) with 14 gr of unique, the highest load I tried with great results... and it showed a pressure max of 53,300 psi. I load enough 45-70 to know it was not that high. I usually aim for a ~35000 psi range and know what that feels like with 450gr of lead and this was nothing like it.

Ryan
Click to expand...

With the three balls, you only have three thin bands as a bearing surface.
That gives you much less friction than a 1.350" length bullet, which would drop the pressure greatly.

I have grand plans of following in your footsteps this winter, but using
0.433" balls in my .444. Should be fun!
 
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