I See your NEA-15 unboxing photo's and raise you a Video!
- Thread starter SPRTN308
- Start date
My target transitions are faster with a forward grip...the mag hold grip is too slow and doesn't do as good a job on mitigating recoil.
It's a dead technique IMO.
It's a dead technique IMO.
Not off the range it's not. I agree the forward grip is better for shooting. But off the range you may be running in full sprint and anything you shoot at will be very close while you're trying to get set up. You can't do that with a forward grip. It squares you up into a shooting stance. You can't sprint in a shooting stance. Keep in mind my transition from a maghold to a forward grip is simply sliding my hand forward or back. It's a quick smooth transition when needed.
If you go back to your basic rifle qualifications while shooting off hand most use a different hold depending on the position they are shooting. Off hand at 100 m most use the Olympic hold, while some use a hunter hold. I found the olympic hold was more accurate at 100m off hand. You wouldn't use this same hold however for shooting prone or from the sitting position. For prone you'd use the "spider" create a bridge with your weak hand as an improvised bipod. For sitting I'm closer in with my support hand because my elbows are locked into the inside of my knees.
The same goes for the techniques we're talking about here with an AR. You aren't going to use only one technique for every situation. I actually do like the forward grip and for 50 yard multiple target shooting then yes it's great. But for longer distance, no. For close while moving very quickly, no. If I were competing at a range. Yup absolutely. My scores will be better. For slow controlled clearing yes I would use the forward grip. In that type of scenario it's more controlled and yes getting on target is then faster since you don't overdue the movement of the carbine.
Anyways regardless, just my thoughts on this. No I'm not an expert on this and I don't pretend to be. He mentions about the criticism of fatigue using this method. He noted he doesn't hold that position the entire time all the time.
Well, I will be the first to admit that I have no experience with simultaneously shooting and sprinting so if a technique works well for that I really wouldn't know. I can honestly say that I am not anywhere near good enough to account for where my bullets would be going if I were sprinting.
All of the run and gun stuff I have done has required me to slow down substantially to get controlled hits. For me personally, I think if I had to sprint, I would just have to focus on sprinting to cover and then shooting from cover.
But if you can sprint and shoot, absolutely rock on, I am in no position to say otherwise.
All of the run and gun stuff I have done has required me to slow down substantially to get controlled hits. For me personally, I think if I had to sprint, I would just have to focus on sprinting to cover and then shooting from cover.
But if you can sprint and shoot, absolutely rock on, I am in no position to say otherwise.
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
Thanks for the debate Epoxy, but I just don't see the need to use the magwell as a grip.....even when kneeling I don't use it. I've never tried sprinting with a rifle, or even that much walking to the target, as my rifle range just isn't set up for it. Besides, I'm not built for sprinting....
Notice the movement and sprinting done here, with no magwell use.
[Youtube]sTva58J2_jI[/Youtube]
[Youtube]TszdJBKTfYk&NR=1[/Youtube]
Notice the movement and sprinting done here, with no magwell use.
[Youtube]sTva58J2_jI[/Youtube]
[Youtube]TszdJBKTfYk&NR=1[/Youtube]
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
Yeah, Haley had a double feed with his rifle and it looks like he forgot to load his pistol before the drill started.
The magwell hold might be dead on the range, but it's very much alive for anyone in the military or police. You'll notice almost anytime cover is used a person generally goes to a mag well hold. You'll find this especially when someone has to hold the firearm in a ready position for an undetermined period of time yet still be ready to fire. The simple reason is you're stronger and can hold the rifle longer without fatigue. The benefit of the forward hold is you reduce the lever effect which stops over steer for faster target acquisition. The disadvantage is that you've reduced the lever effect so you will fatigue much faster. Unlike the range you may go a very long time having to be ready without actually ever firing a shot.
The rundown exercise shown previously isn't reflective of the reality of running and shooting. In most cases it's to get somewhere while possibly having to shoot suppressive fire. So you'd want to be able to shoot while running as fast as possible. You can't move very fast with the forward grip. You're not going to run right up, sight up from 5 feet and shoot. The only benefit of that exercise is to get your heart pumping the adrenaline going and teach you to then focus while being able to shoot. It's beneficial since that part is more realistic and it's very different from shooting relaxed at a firing line. It's a great exercise but unlikely to ever go that way in real life, unless you screw up.
Don't get me wrong I actually have come around to the forward hold when it's use is appropriate. But that's not all the time and it's benefit is a lot less likely to be used outside a range. I also consider the vertical grip a decent compromise between the two. Especially if you have heavy crud mounted on your rifle. That being said for non combat and police use I still like a clean rifle with no vertical grip, especially if it will be a patrol carbine and the officer has to get out of the car with it ready to go. If something can get hung up it will. From a police perspective I think the forward hold would be beneficial for instances such as rapid response to school shootings once inside the school. You're in a fairly contained area and clearing areas with longer hallways. I could see it being very useful for that and would probably use it in that instance.
Keep in mind that the first tactical principle out of the 7 for Police is: Cover.
Early use of the magwell hold:
Russian most likely on the Eastern Front with SVT-40
Canadian soldier training with the Armalite AR10.
Benefits of the magwell hold:
1) When shooting from behind cover you can actually hold your firearm. Note the small walls used in Afghanistan. Or vehicle engine block use for police.
2) When you have optics, bipods etc you can keep your rifle on target easier and for longer with less tiring.
3) When running for it and having to use suppression fire. You're just firing in the general direction while trying to get out of a bad situation. Being able to run full out while making it harder for the other people is the purpose. Especially if you are only one of a bunch of you trying to relocate.
4) When you have a longer barrel such as a 20" like many infantry rifles. Again balance/strength are at play here.
5) For police, you may have to hold that firearm for a long time either covering an area, or on a suspect without ever firing a shot. You're a lot stronger and for longer holding the rifle by the magwell rather than out further.
Here are our guys in Afghanistan showing off the range use and under fire. Good work guys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIAfS0HNUVU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQBkgoH7NNU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4brC6F91bEY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_WiEvPYBIc&feature=related
Anyways just my thoughts on this. I don't consider myself an expert although I do have some experience off the range.
The rundown exercise shown previously isn't reflective of the reality of running and shooting. In most cases it's to get somewhere while possibly having to shoot suppressive fire. So you'd want to be able to shoot while running as fast as possible. You can't move very fast with the forward grip. You're not going to run right up, sight up from 5 feet and shoot. The only benefit of that exercise is to get your heart pumping the adrenaline going and teach you to then focus while being able to shoot. It's beneficial since that part is more realistic and it's very different from shooting relaxed at a firing line. It's a great exercise but unlikely to ever go that way in real life, unless you screw up.
Don't get me wrong I actually have come around to the forward hold when it's use is appropriate. But that's not all the time and it's benefit is a lot less likely to be used outside a range. I also consider the vertical grip a decent compromise between the two. Especially if you have heavy crud mounted on your rifle. That being said for non combat and police use I still like a clean rifle with no vertical grip, especially if it will be a patrol carbine and the officer has to get out of the car with it ready to go. If something can get hung up it will. From a police perspective I think the forward hold would be beneficial for instances such as rapid response to school shootings once inside the school. You're in a fairly contained area and clearing areas with longer hallways. I could see it being very useful for that and would probably use it in that instance.
Keep in mind that the first tactical principle out of the 7 for Police is: Cover.
Early use of the magwell hold:
Russian most likely on the Eastern Front with SVT-40
Canadian soldier training with the Armalite AR10.
Benefits of the magwell hold:
1) When shooting from behind cover you can actually hold your firearm. Note the small walls used in Afghanistan. Or vehicle engine block use for police.
2) When you have optics, bipods etc you can keep your rifle on target easier and for longer with less tiring.
3) When running for it and having to use suppression fire. You're just firing in the general direction while trying to get out of a bad situation. Being able to run full out while making it harder for the other people is the purpose. Especially if you are only one of a bunch of you trying to relocate.
4) When you have a longer barrel such as a 20" like many infantry rifles. Again balance/strength are at play here.
5) For police, you may have to hold that firearm for a long time either covering an area, or on a suspect without ever firing a shot. You're a lot stronger and for longer holding the rifle by the magwell rather than out further.
Here are our guys in Afghanistan showing off the range use and under fire. Good work guys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIAfS0HNUVU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQBkgoH7NNU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4brC6F91bEY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_WiEvPYBIc&feature=related
Anyways just my thoughts on this. I don't consider myself an expert although I do have some experience off the range.
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I am not an expert on using cover by any stretch but unless I specifically needed to get right on top of it to prevent, say, flashing myself up with a white light, I would rather stay as far back from the cover as I could. I can understand how in some cases you're forced to crowd the hell out of your cover, but I'd rather take the approach that the default hand position is forward, and if some strange circumstance forces me to get right up against the cover, I can move it back. I don't consider this to be an active training protocol, though.
My personal take is that for shooting, I want my hand forward. If I end up forced off that position, I can deal with that, but I do not actively apply a magwell grip for certain situations. In general, I want one master grip that is a default for shooting and I think that this approach gives me a more consistent body position and allows me to shoot better than changing back and forth would.
But then I will also admit that I am never required to engage in suppressive fire and have no experience with that. If I am shooting it is because I am trying to hit a specific target and that is where I think the forward grip is helpful.
My personal take is that for shooting, I want my hand forward. If I end up forced off that position, I can deal with that, but I do not actively apply a magwell grip for certain situations. In general, I want one master grip that is a default for shooting and I think that this approach gives me a more consistent body position and allows me to shoot better than changing back and forth would.
But then I will also admit that I am never required to engage in suppressive fire and have no experience with that. If I am shooting it is because I am trying to hit a specific target and that is where I think the forward grip is helpful.
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
The only thing I want to know at this point is if a magwell hold would be better with forged 7075 or billet 6061.
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[Youtube]ti1Qhri530Q[/Youtube]
[Youtube]zr2ydar6q7Q[/Youtube]
The only thing I want to know at this point is if a magwell hold would be better with forged 7075 or billet 6061.
Which ever one is heavier. The magwell hold will be easier for the shooter. It's why you're more likely to see it with the heavier 308 AR rifles. It balances better and you're stronger. With optics this makes it easier to hold the rifle steady.
British soldier with LMT MWS 308.
Like I said on the range. For scored shooting I would use it too. Although mag changes may be slower since your support hand is moving further to change the mag and back out again. These drills aren't testing that. I would also like to see timed with runs and shooting while having to keep your firearm up and on target. Or testing which one is faster after having to hold your rifle on target for 4 minutes without any supports, simulating a police situation of keeping a suspect covered while waiting for back up.
Speed reloading. They are both using a forward grip but it's close to the magwell. If either of them used the forward hold they would have lost. M4 with maghold might have given the other guy the advantage.
Pros and Cons. There is no one and only hold for all situations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2_qo5_wSa8&feature=related
Well, thanks everyone for that rousing discussion on how to properly hold my rifle.
I'll be sure to give both a fair shake next time I'm out shooting.
My background is in smallbore/highpower silhouette, which means I'm typically using an Olympic style hold/stance. If I had an even shorter magazine I'd probably have had my front hand supporting the rifle right under the magazine well.
I suspect once I get out to try service rifle I'll learn real quick what works best.
On that note, be sure to check out this past weeks episode of Canadian Reload Radio, featuring special guest Hungry.
If you don't listen yer #### might fall off.
I'll be sure to give both a fair shake next time I'm out shooting.
My background is in smallbore/highpower silhouette, which means I'm typically using an Olympic style hold/stance. If I had an even shorter magazine I'd probably have had my front hand supporting the rifle right under the magazine well.
I suspect once I get out to try service rifle I'll learn real quick what works best.
On that note, be sure to check out this past weeks episode of Canadian Reload Radio, featuring special guest Hungry.
If you don't listen yer #### might fall off.
