I have read reviews of 2-3 inch groups at 100 yards with the jr carbine - I don't know about you but I can achieve that at 25 yards with my 1911 but at 100y most pistol shooters would be lucky to hit a target, myself included. I am set up to reload 45acp and have a dozen 1911 mags so for me its a no brainer.
PDW Cartridges
- Thread starter Suputin
- Start date
I have read reviews of 2-3 inch groups at 100 yards with the jr carbine - I don't know about you but I can achieve that at 25 yards with my 1911 but at 100y most pistol shooters would be lucky to hit a target, myself included. I am set up to reload 45acp and have a dozen 1911 mags so for me its a no brainer.
I'm with you.
A non-restricted .45 carbine that takes pistol mags would be perfect for me.
It would take half as long as to reload .223 what with case trimming and all,
and with good hot Hollowpoint reloads it would be a pretty good close range <100yd proposition.
A non-restricted .45 carbine that takes pistol mags would be perfect for me.
It would take half as long as to reload .223 what with case trimming and all,
and with good hot Hollowpoint reloads it would be a pretty good close range <100yd proposition.
Verdical Driver
Regular
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I don't doubt that anyone can shoot better at 100 years with a carbine... I am not questioning the utility of a pistol caliber carbine chambered in the same ammo as your pistol... the whole pistol caliber carbine concept that shares ammo and mags with your pistol is totally sound.
However, the faster the round you are firing, the more accurate it should be... a faster & lighter round should do better (in theory) that a slower & heaver round in a carbine at 100+ yards.
Thus, if you are choosing a carbine to match your pistol, .45ACP is sound... But if you are choosing a pistol to match your carbine, a higher velocity round might be better.
...as I understand it. I could be totally wrong. Just trying to understand better myself.
Agreed.
This is why I prefer my PS-90 and Five-seveN combo over the Kriss Super V and Glock 21 combo.
Both have their purposes though.
I disagree. the Kriss supported by a .45ACP handgun is a waste of size and weight for a poorly performing cartridge in both platforms. The PS-90 and Five seveN is a better solution, ultimately to a problem that doesn't exist. There is no need or requirement for your secondary to share ammo with your primary. This thought process is based entirely on economics as opposed to practicality.
TDC
I highly doubt that. Level 3A armour is rated against 125gr 357 Sig at 1470 fps. I chrono'd IVI 9mm ball at only 1350 fps out of a 7" barrel.
I can confirm that IVI 9mm ball will penetrate a level 2A vest though.
I still like 7.62X39 - 123gr bullet going about 1840ish fps out of a 7.5" barrel yields (if my math is correct) just over 900 ft/lbs of energy... pretty respectable in a pdw!
I'd happily take my Vz compact as a PDW, and not feel under-armed
I'd happily take my Vz compact as a PDW, and not feel under-armed
Congratulations, you're the first guy I've ever heard of thats claiming a .45 ACP is a poor performing handgun/SMG cartridge. I can't wait to hear your rationale as to why.
I'm sure there's plenty of people who have met their maker over the last 100 years who were on the receiving end of a .45 ACP that might disagree with you.
What you chrono"d was the new Cdn mil ball ammuntion and it is not same as the hotter SMG ammunition which was loaded to +P+ that was standard isssue when we had the SMG . That is why the issued Browning Highpower Pistols had problems of the frames cracking and yes that ammuntion will easily defeat the Level IIIA vest .When Second Chance started building body armour and the NIJ standards were set the only round to defeat Level III A vest was 9mm Cdn Ball ammunition and the data cards sewn on to the carriers stated the rounds that the vest will not stop and the Canadian Military Ball ammo was listed along with rifle cartridges.
The P90 shooting the 5.7x 28mm the 5.7 is at at best a marginal cartridge interms of stopping power it relies on volume of fire to neutralize a target not cartridge performance . I agree with TDC on the 45 ACP being inadequate for use a PDW given the requirements to defeat body armor .While the Kriss gun is a neat novelty item. I do not find that it lives up to its claims from the manufacturer in recoil reduction
On that point, there is no argument. There's far better choices out there for both military and civilian applications. In the context of it's use as a PDW cartridge the .45 ACP isn't a consideration.
So, in your professional opinion do you consder the SMG class of weapons as a dying breed on life support or is it clinically dead for all intensive purposes?
Will we see PDW's supplant SMG's in the future or is there a niche for both to co-exist?
I'm not an expert, or even all that well informed, but it seems to me that the SMG's would have a niche in law enforcement against non-armored targets where the PDW's assume that they should be ready to be used against other military/armored targets. Hence the insistence for armor penetration that is an unnecessary requirement in other situations where you can pick your weapon according to the situation.
Red
Red
Did Kevin answer your question or should we discuss it some more? As Kevin posted, my point was that a shoulder controlled firearm should be chambered for a rifle cartridge. .45ACP is not a rifle cartridge and is therefore a poor choice. Having two systems that share ammo is great for the range guy, but impractical for the professional and I would hazard to say impractical for the competitor as well.
Thanks Kevin,
Frankie gets the win here. The use of a subgun for LE is again, without merit. The standard used to be subguns under the belief that they would not penetrate barriers(like your home) as well as a rifle calibre, thus reducing the potential for collateral damage. Science has proven this to be false. The other gain with a subgun was the minimal recoil which aided control for rapid and/or automatic fire. Overall size used to be a factor in favor of the subgun but that is no longer the case either. With a short barreled AR chambered in its original cartridge, the recoil is no more challenging than that of a subgun. The gain is the terminal performance of the .223/5.56 cartridge. Even super short barreled AR's produce substantial terminal performance at short(read domestic inside your home or neighbourhood) ranges. The cartridge will also penetrate all soft armor with ease unlike subguns.
As for running something capable of defeating armor. Its always an asset but its not always available. A NSR or Non Standard Response is often taught for threats wearing armor. Shooting for other areas such as the pelvis and head are the most common methods of NSR.
TDC
Sub gun still have their use, and that's why JTF are still carrying MP5K PDW, and the main advantage is the size. Rifle round work with speed, especially 5.56/.223, the faster it goes the better, that's why numerous study show that very short barreled rifled M4 are nothing more than .22 magnum. Pistol round on the other hand work more with weight and size of the bullet, so can have a very small weapon with a small barrel, a lot less recoil for follow up shot (easier for head or pelvis shot) and in short range (under 50) with good JHP bullet you might even have the same or even better terminal ballistic than a 5.56 shot from a short barrel (10inch) .
But its still a pistol round and that's why the knight PDW is very interesting, the round is clearly a medium between both. Make me think a bit like the AK74SU, that also as a nice little under appreciated round
But its still a pistol round and that's why the knight PDW is very interesting, the round is clearly a medium between both. Make me think a bit like the AK74SU, that also as a nice little under appreciated round
winnipegger
CGN frequent flyer
the aks-74u fired 5.45x39... the standard russian rifle round. how is that under appreciated or little? (i believe somewhat more powerful than standard 5.56 although that could be wrong)
