No4 MK1 guru's I need advise

tigrr

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So the rifle in question has 2 lands and 2 grooves. Is that normal? Friday gun maybe?
What bullet/powder combination should I consider? It slugged to 316 to the bottom of the grooves. The bore is dark. Ser# P291xxA England N19 with a crown under it. R something F stamped on wrist, looks like a C. 1 something 42 also on wrist.
Where do I go look for info about this rifle.
Is it a wall hanger?

Any Ideas?
Prefered bullets?
Prefered powder?
thanks
 
Many North American No4 MkI barrels were made with two grooves, as they were found during experiments in 1941 to have similar wear characteristics to four and five groove barrels at considerably less cost. This was a wartime exigency permitted by the British government, not an excuse for a 'friday afternoon' product. They CAN shoot VERY well, and if you are a reloader, they have particular fondness for cast bullets, too.

R[O]F means Royal Ordnance Factory, so it might not be a Savage-made gun. Serial numbers for Savage-made guns had a letter C in front, BTW.

If you can post details stamped on the r/h side of the butt socket in the order in which they are seen - top to bottom - that would be helpful. Any marks on the knox-form of the barrel and adjacent are good, too.

tac
 
Bullets:

Speer and Sierra make their .303British bullets with .311" diameter and these are commonly available in Canada. Hawk, also American, also makes .311" diameter and their claims for their "soft" copper jackets are attractive, but I don't know if anyone imports them to Canada. The Barnes TSX is now available for this calibre, in .311" diameter and at least one large Canadian retailer is listing them (can't remember if it's Wholesale Sports or Cabelas.) But you may want to try some cheaper stuff to test your rifle's capability before deciding whether you are going to take it hunting and even if you decide to, you might still reasonably balk at the cost of Barnes.

Hornady's are .312" as are the Woodleighs from Australia - site sponsor Trade Ex Canada (T.E.C) imports the latter.

Steve Redgewell of 303British.com made some at .314" but I am not sure he is going on with that.
 
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I have another Lee Enfield and it has 5 lands and grooves. I'll take pictures of the rest of the markings as soon as I find a way to highlight them.
Who new, 2 lands and grooves.
 
I have another Lee Enfield and it has 5 lands and grooves. I'll take pictures of the rest of the markings as soon as I find a way to highlight them.
Who new, 2 lands and grooves.

Yup, 2 groove bbls are quite common on No4s. Longbranch produced a lot of them. 5 grooves were the standard. Post WW2 Longbranch even produced some 6 groove, right-hand twist barrels.

2 groove barrels are certainly accurate enough and are right on par with the 4/5 groove wartime bbls. Many were used on M1903A3 Springfield rifles as well. Some were even used on M1903A4 sniper rifles.
 
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Given the serial # it looks like it is a Fazakerley. Also from what I can tell the A at the end of it would suggest a non-interchangable parts rifle. As for if its a wall hanger; so long as it headspaces ok, it should be fine to shoot. With the dark bore, if you do and you notice a weird sound after firing or have key holed targets, then the barrel might be worn out. Just something to keep an eye on.

Some online info

http://www.enfieldrifles.ca/
http://www.enfieldresource.com/
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=27&sid=c14a71dbf931c77d252510a0fd332c36

EDIT. Just checked my skennerton and I'll quote it here. "...Other rifles with otherwise normal serial numbers had 'A' suffixes added on subsequent inspection or refits, eg B21952A was a Fazakerly ROF(F) No4 Mk1 later downgraded/fitted with non-interchangeable parts." Skennerton S.A.I.S. .303 Rifle No.4 pg45
 
Given the serial # it looks like it is a Fazakerley. Also from what I can tell the A at the end of it would suggest a non-interchangable parts rifle. As for if its a wall hanger; so long as it headspaces ok, it should be fine to shoot. With the dark bore, if you do and you notice a weird sound after firing or have key holed targets, then the barrel might be worn out. Just something to keep an eye on.

Some online info

http://www.enfieldrifles.ca/
http://www.enfieldresource.com/
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=27&sid=c14a71dbf931c77d252510a0fd332c36

EDIT. Just checked my skennerton and I'll quote it here. "...Other rifles with otherwise normal serial numbers had 'A' suffixes added on subsequent inspection or refits, eg B21952A was a Fazakerly ROF(F) No4 Mk1 later downgraded/fitted with non-interchangeable parts." Skennerton S.A.I.S. .303 Rifle No.4 pg45

Now if that B were a P I'd be excited. Because that would be my rifle!!I tore the gun apart to see if the P could actually be stamped funny, but it is a P. Awesome history lesson Cdn303. Now I have to do more research. What would they mean by downgraded?
It shoots OK but not great. It rarley gets out of the safe though, because of its fussy with what bullets it likes. This is a hand me down, Grandfather(RCAF), father and now to me. :cool:
 
I'd like to know too. I have a '44 Maltby that was sporter converted by Parker-Hale with the A postfix. This rifle shoots exceptionally. Did it mean that other magazines weren't interchangeable with it or?
 
I was told by a former weapons tech that the five groove barrels were surplus Bren gun barrels machined to size to be used for Enfield rifles.

And yes, two groove barrels shoot very well (mine likes .312" Hornady bullets).
 
Now if that B were a P I'd be excited. Because that would be my rifle!!I tore the gun apart to see if the P could actually be stamped funny, but it is a P. Awesome history lesson Cdn303. Now I have to do more research. What would they mean by downgraded?
It shoots OK but not great. It rarley gets out of the safe though, because of its fussy with what bullets it likes. This is a hand me down, Grandfather(RCAF), father and now to me. :cool:

I'd like to know too. I have a '44 Maltby that was sporter converted by Parker-Hale with the A postfix. This rifle shoots exceptionally. Did it mean that other magazines weren't interchangeable with it or?

I don't know what Skennerton means by downgraded. I think it references that particular rifle. The thing to take from it is '...rifles with otherwise normal serial numbers had 'A' suffixes added on subsequent inspection or refits'.

What I take from this is that when the rifles went back into the unit (regimental or battalion, etc) armoury, they would have been inspected by the armourer, had anything fixed, or brought up to the new standards (read below), and marked accordingly. (stamp on the know form or possibly the A suffix)

After the war all of the wartime 'shortcuts' were declaired obsolete and replaced with the 'better' parts. This includes the milled rear sight with adjustable slide, rather than the 'L' type or even the stamped sight; restocked, restocked if the factory stock was damaged or had started to warp (during the war there was no time to properly dry the wood to the correct moisture content, so after the war by 46-49, when most of the work was done, the stock may have dried more and warped); sometimes they rebarrel wore out ones; and so on. If any particular rifle needed just one or two of these, the unit armourer would do it as stated before. If any particular rifle need most or all of these, they went back for FTR (factory thoughout repair).

That is not saying the all rifles were brought to the new standards. A lot of rifles were also sold off, as is, and that is where a lot of the Churchill and parker hale sporters have come from (in the '50s and '60s it was the thing to do)

I have a '43 Maltby, that had under gone FTR in '49, but sometime between then and know, someone sportered it (wood cut and barrel cut behind bayonet lugs). It has a 5 groove (from what I can tell, during the war it probably had a 2 groove barrel), and milled sight, and all the other hardware is the good stuff. I also have a full military '42 Maltby that still has all the wartime shortcuts present. (2 groove, 'L' sight, etc)

I am sure one the the more knowledgable guru's can chime in and back me up.

EDIT: Wow, I didn't mean the ramble on like this, but I don't mind helping other 'surpers.
 
I agree with you.
I think I read in Mr Skennerton's bible that Longbranch rifle's with 5 groove barrels were relatively rare, compared to 2 grooved ones.

The Parker-Hale Maltby I have has the MkI rearsight but it doesn't have broad arrow markings. I assume it must be a parker-hale built unit.
The rifle also has a blonde (beech?)stock on it in the cut down military form. No front sight guard and bayo lug was cut off.

Forgive me if my info or assumptions are wrong, new to collecting and I've read A LOT of info in the last few months. Reading Gen. Hatcher's notebook, Skennerton's third edition and being on CGN and gunboards daily is a lot to take in, lovin it though!
 
I was told by a former weapons tech that the five groove barrels were surplus Bren gun barrels machined to size to be used for Enfield rifles.

And yes, two groove barrels shoot very well (mine likes .312" Hornady bullets).

Not true. 5 groove bbl's were the standard, 2 groove were the most common substitute standard.

4 groove barrels made in the US sometimes show up as well as 6 groove barrels, but in much lower numbers than the 5's and 2's.

Basically the oddball bores were done on machines set up for other rifles (like Springfields, Brens, etc.) to maximize rifling output dusing wartime.
 
Basically the oddball bores were done on machines set up for other rifles (like Springfields, Brens, etc.) to maximize rifling output dusing wartime.

Ya, I have a '43 No1 MkIII* made by BSA, that has a 4 groove. Rather then BSA switch one of their barrel lines over to start making 2 groovers, it was just a quick for them to stay making 4 groove barrels. I believe there were made on a line that made sporting rifle barrels.
 
Two groove barrels are very inaccurate and you would be happier if you send your two groove Enfield to me for disposal.

Just mail the Enfield rifle to:
Ed Horton suckered another Enfield
PO box .303 Enfield heaven
Penciltuckey U.S.A. 17112

Below shot from a 1943 Maltby with a worn two groove barrel and Hornady .312 174 grain round nose bullets.

Five shots 50 yards with PH-5C target sight, as you can see the 2 groove barrel is not very accurate and I had 2 fliers. :rolleyes:

range-day-2-1.jpg
 
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