Wolf Experience on Vanc Isle - Lesson

Cougar, black bear, grizzly bear and coyote have all killed humans, that's been proven. It's also been proven wolves kill humans, in Europe and North America.
So now we need to ask ourselves why some of us get completely stubborn and think it's not possible for wolves to kill humans? :confused:
The fact they are one of the more regal predators matters little. People need to stop with the "save the wolf" mentality. They should be viewed like every other predator since they behave like every other predator. The Farley Mowats of the world have been proven wrong years ago.
 
The young third year geology guy in Sask was almost certainly killed by a black bear. The investigators that visited the site determined it to be bear, only a scared RCMP officer and the colleagues of the fellow stated it was wolves because they saw tracks and saw eyes in the dark when recovering the body. It is not abnormal for predators to visit a kill site rapidly after the attack. Geist and another researcher, who did not visit the site, were the ones that concluded wolves. I know a fellow who shot a wolf 'on the charge' but he was calling Moose and brought in wolves- they were more surprised than he when they found out he was human I'm betting. I have as much chance of being struck by lightening as being attacked and I'm out there more days than I'm at home.
The researcher brought in from the University of Alberta was a wolf apologist and came up with the bear theory.The Saskatchewan Government brought in a biologist and wolf expert from the State of Alaska who determined immediatly that was a case of wolf predation.Then of course there is case of the substitute teacher in Alaska last year,killed and eaten by wolves while out jogging.As I said I have nothing against wolves,they are a predator like any other,but seeing the state of denial that some people are in reminds me of the Global Warming debate.Time will tell,but I believe Dr.Geist is correct,he deals in reality,unlike the apologists who feel that wolves can do no wrong.They are the same people who championed the reintroduction of wolves into the US Northern Rockies.That's not working out too well: Mur.
 
Cougar, black bear, grizzly bear and coyote have all killed humans, that's been proven. It's also been proven wolves kill humans, in Europe and North America.
So now we need to ask ourselves why some of us get completely stubborn and think it's not possible for wolves to kill humans? :confused:
The fact they are one of the more regal predators matters little. People need to stop with the "save the wolf" mentality. They should be viewed like every other predator since they behave like every other predator. The Farley Mowats of the world have been proven wrong years ago.

I don't recall anyone saying that wolves cannot kill people.

What is contentious is the assertion that wolves are a direct threat to humans. Given that the number of verified fatalities in the last hundred years (in North America) is negligible, the data show that the notion is absurd.

You are more likely to be killed in almost any activity (including having a bath) than being killed by a wolf.

Wolves can kill people, but they very, very rarely do (in North America). European and Asian wolves appear to behave very differently, as has been acknowledged. Using Eurasian data is a red herring - these are completely different populations and species of wolves.

Just as Mowat's assertion of wolves only eating mice was ridiculous, so is the fear mongering.
 
I always look forward to sightings................ :D
(yeah, I know, terrible shot :redface:)
2011deer025.jpg

Don't mean to step on your jewls but I think you got a coyote there. Not a wolf sorry. Wolfs are pretty big in real life.
 
I'd agree with you more strongly Ol Smoky if it didn't mean aligning myself with your avatar. :redface:

I have nothing against hunting Wolves, nor do I think Wolves incapable of killing people. But I've read more reports of even the Whitetail deer killing people than Wolves. Some folks I'm arguing with here (I'm on a smartphone and it's a pain to go back and get the names) seem to want to push anyone who scoffs at the 'great wolf' threat into a corner, saying we all are of the Disney view of nature and are out of touch. I also note many of those voices come from urban areas, all but devoid of Wolves (bearkilr is a strong exception and has a lot of experience in the matter). The plain and simple fact is yes, everyone agrees Wolves are indeed predators and are capable of killing humans, but we disagree on how likely that is. A lot of the urban and southern residents seem to think that threat is immenent, and I feel myself and all the others hundreds of thousands working in the north and bush demonstrate that's not likely. I like the comfort of being armed but this ridiculous push of the 'wolf threat' is getting to the point of emotion and not reason. Show me a hundred reports of wolf kills of people in the Canadian north and bush in the last few years, and I'll concede the point. I can't find those reports, but I bet I could find reports in those numbers of people killed by work mishaps in the bush, by falling through ice, crushed by falling trees, ice, or suffocated in avalanches. Even guys killed accidentally by the guns they brought to defend themselves. We are getting worked up and arguing for pages about a threat as likely as death by lightening strike, probably even less likely than that actually.

I'll never disagree Wolves can kill people, so can my dog. I won't even disagree and argue they never do kill people. But I'll never join the frenzy and think we are in some sort of situation or at risk when any number of things I do at work in the north is more of a risk by thousands upon thousands of times. You guys know why I like Wolves? Because they are apex predators, the first animals to disappear when the health of an ecosystem is damaged. Reference the plunge of the Tiger, the Lion, the American Wolf and Grizzly (thankfully rebounding), the complete extinction of the Tasmanian Tiger and the Caspian Tiger... and on. I love wild places with a passion, I travel to find, hunt, and explore them at great expense, I chose a career that keeps me in them despite meaning I'm rarel home, it's a consuming passion. Nothing, and I mean nothing embodies a wild place better than still having apex predators present. Africa hearing lions, hyenas, and leopards at night while in your tent, northern Canada hearing the call of Wolves or seeing Grizzly. You know you're somewhere when you see them and hear them. No romanticising, no sentimentalism, just a strong appreciation for the areas humans haven't yet completely subjugated.

When we have flickers of the real wild around us we pannick and advocate destruction on sight. If we could step back and watch ourselves we'd be sick. There aren't half as many Wolves or Grizzlies out there as this forum would have you think, and there may even be the odd Cougar or Wolf in southern Ontario now- lucky them! But some ignorant people already talk about the need to 'control' something that only just re-established itself, just barely bringing some wild back. It makes me sick, as a very avid hunter and outdoorsman. People have even brought up the re-introduction of Wolves to the north-central continental US as a negative! It is ONLY a negative to the ignorant there who became used to ranching a tamed landscape and enjoyed unsustainably large populations of Elk and Deer and came to think that was normal. Yellowstone has had its rivers deepen and clear, fish stocks rebound, and new tree growth start again in any meaningful way among hundreds of other improvements since the reintroduction of the Wolf. People didn't think of the humble trout when they thought of Wolves. Far overpopulated Elk were eating down the lush riverbanks' foliage, causing the streams to erode the now unsupported banks into sediment making turbid, warm, shallow waters that destroyed trout stocks. Wolves hunt open sight lines, and use rivers heavily to allow them to spot game.

The reintroduction allowed the reforming fl the bank foliage and restoration of trout streams, and this is just one of hundreds of examples of improvements. There are far too many armchair 'conservationists' certain they know best for an entire ecosystem when in fact they are woefully ignorant of reality. Hell, I don't understand it! Therefore I do not try and 'moderate' or make a balance in a system far greater and smarter than myself. I take from that system sustainably, predators and ungulates, I don't fear it, and I let people far more knowledgeable and with far more education than I make the calls.
 
Last edited:
Its a wolf smartass, believe me.

I too, looked long and hard at that picture, trying to determine if it was a wolf, or coyote.
It's ears are large, in comparison with the head, for a wolf and the legs are pretty light boned, as well as the feet looking too dainty for a wolf.
You can save your smartass quotes to me, because I am trying to give it an honest appraisal.
If it is a wolf, it must be a young one, probably a female.
It's too bad you didn't have something in the picture for size comparison.
 
I too, looked long and hard at that picture, trying to determine if it was a wolf, or coyote.
It's ears are large, in comparison with the head, for a wolf and the legs are pretty light boned, as well as the feet looking too dainty for a wolf.
You can save your smartass quotes to me, because I am trying to give it an honest appraisal.
If it is a wolf, it must be a young one, probably a female.
It's too bad you didn't have something in the picture for size comparison.

I get about 40-60 coyotes during the winter months and generally 4-7 wolves. The one in the above picture was shot at 110 yards with my Kimber in 308 using 150 grain TTSX. The hide is in the freezer and the carcass is outside the shop with chickadees pecking the fat. It was last years young(2010), a female and probably weighed around 70 lbs. She had some of the nicest fur I've seen.

Are we done playing Internet biologist people?
 
I'd agree with you more strongly Ol Smoky if it didn't mean aligning myself with your avatar. :redface:.......
Don't take my avatar too seriously!:D

Good post, and some good information there.

Guys just don't seem to realize that by demonizing the wolf, and portraying them as a threat they demonstrably aren't (we're arguing about one case that's iffy, and a handful of other in the last 100 years), they are committing precisely the same error as the Disney and Mowat crowd - fanciful thinking.

Fiction and fear mongering takes precedence over 50-60 years of careful field biology - really?

The actual amount of predation by wolves in the Western states is very small, and a scheme of control and compensation for loss is preferable to stopping the process of repairing the damage done to the Western ecosystems.
 
I'd agree with you more strongly Ol Smoky if it didn't mean aligning myself with your avatar. :redface:

I have nothing against hunting Wolves, nor do I think Wolves incapable of killing people. But I've read more reports of even the Whitetail deer killing people than Wolves. Some folks I'm arguing with here (I'm on a smartphone and it's a pain to go back and get the names) seem to want to push anyone who scoffs at the 'great wolf' threat into a corner, saying we all are of the Disney view of nature and are out of touch. I also note many of those voices come from urban areas, all but devoid of Wolves (bearkilr is a strong exception and has a lot of experience in the matter). The plain and simple fact is yes, everyone agrees Wolves are indeed predators and are capable of killing humans, but we disagree on how likely that is. A lot of the urban and southern residents seem to think that threat is immenent, and I feel myself and all the others hundreds of thousands working in the north and bush demonstrate that's not likely. I like the comfort of being armed but this ridiculous push of the 'wolf threat' is getting to the point of emotion and not reason. Show me a hundred reports of wolf kills of people in the Canadian north and bush in the last few years, and I'll concede the point. I can't find those reports, but I bet I could find reports in those numbers of people killed by work mishaps in the bush, by falling through ice, crushed by falling trees, ice, or suffocated in avalanches. Even guys killed accidentally by the guns they brought to defend themselves. We are getting worked up and arguing for pages about a threat as likely as death by lightening strike, probably even less likely than that actually.

I'll never disagree Wolves can kill people, so can my dog. I won't even disagree and argue they never do kill people. But I'll never join the frenzy and think we are in some sort of situation or at risk when any number of things I do at work in the north is more of a risk by thousands upon thousands of times. You guys know why I like Wolves? Because they are apex predators, the first animals to disappear when the health of an ecosystem is damaged. Reference the plunge of the Tiger, the Lion, the American Wolf and Grizzly (thankfully rebounding), the complete extinction of the Tasmanian Tiger and the Caspian Tiger... and on. I love wild places with a passion, I travel to find, hunt, and explore them at great expense, I chose a career that keeps me in them despite meaning I'm rarel home, it's a consuming passion. Nothing, and I mean nothing embodies a wild place better than still having apex predators present. Africa hearing lions, hyenas, and leopards at night while in your tent, northern Canada hearing the call of Wolves or seeing Grizzly. You know you're somewhere when you see them and hear them. No romanticising, no sentimentalism, just a strong appreciation for the areas humans haven't yet completely subjugated.

When we have flickers of the real wild around us we pannick and advocate destruction on sight. If we could step back and watch ourselves we'd be sick. There aren't half as many Wolves or Grizzlies out there as this forum would have you think, and there may even be the odd Cougar or Wolf in southern Ontario now- lucky them! But some ignorant people already talk about the need to 'control' something that only just re-established itself, just barely bringing some wild back. It makes me sick, as a very avid hunter and outdoorsman. People have even brought up the re-introduction of Wolves to the north-central continental US as a negative! It is ONLY a negative to the ignorant there who became used to ranching a tamed landscape and enjoyed unsustainably large populations of Elk and Deer and came to think that was normal. Yellowstone has had its rivers deepen and clear, fish stocks rebound, and new tree growth start again in any meaningful way among hundreds of other improvements since the reintroduction of the Wolf. People didn't think of the humble trout when they thought of Wolves. Far overpopulated Elk were eating down the lush riverbanks' foliage, causing the streams to erode the now unsupported banks into sediment making turbid, warm, shallow waters that destroyed trout stocks. Wolves hunt open sight lines, and use rivers heavily to allow them to spot game.

The reintroduction allowed the reforming fl the bank foliage and restoration of trout streams, and this is just one of hundreds of examples of improvements. There are far too many armchair 'conservationists' certain they know best for an entire ecosystem when in fact they are woefully ignorant of reality. Hell, I don't understand it! Therefore I do not try and 'moderate' or make a balance in a system far greater and smarter than myself. I take from that system sustainably, predators and ungulates, I don't fear it, and I let people far more knowledgeable and with far more education than I make the calls.

Let's say ,hypothetically of course, wolves have a detrimental effect on the aviation industry, you lose your job and livelihood........................still feel the same way?

Sometimes it's good to think outside the box......... ;)
 
I still don't get the whole "shoot on sight" imperative that many people on here seem to have. I've seen 7 wolves over the years, six of which were in BC. At the end of the day they all avoided people to the best of their means (one was forced towards us by a fire... I suspect we were the lesser of two evils when compared to being burnt over).

The rest have been encountered from the west coast above Squamish to north of Fort Nelson, and in all cases they ran with all speed possible to get away from people. I've encountered the signs of a winter pack several times, usually around a kill that has been stripped to the hooves, sometimes being eaten over the period of a week or two. Once it was soon enough that the calf was still warm and the pack had moved off, probably because of my snowmobile. Within the week the carcass was stripped to meaty bones.

From what I've read in this thread from Ol'smokey and Ardent, I'm with them. None of the wolves I've encountered have had an ounce of interest in humans, and all showed distinct signs of waryness from encountering humans, even when singly on foot. I've had more problems from habituated feral rabbits frankly... those buggers will spray you with piss if you don't feed them or try to shoe them away. Wolf populations will spike, prey species will drop, wolves will decline, prey will increase... it's pretty standard. We see that with chipmunks, squirrels, grouse and rabbits in conjunction with bobcats, pine martens and weasels where we are. There are high years and low years, they always see-saw but balance out if you stop dicking with things. Our expectation of yearly increases in deer, elk and moose populations with easier and easier hunts and better and better trophies is unrealistic and frankly it's the wolves and other predators that are made to pay for our expectations.
 
Let's say ,hypothetically of course, wolves have a detrimental effect on the aviation industry, you lose your job and livelihood........................still feel the same way?

Sometimes it's good to think outside the box......... ;)

Then get another job that isn't so fringe that the reintroduction of a species can end it's ability to turn a profit and cause layoffs:p

I suspect that wolves being returned will have some impact on the hunters and outfitters.... but then why not have a limited hunt for wolves and they can make an industry of large predator hunting? Set the LEH hunts for the tail end of peak wolf seasons where there is an expected die off in the immediate future anyways. Put LEH prey hunts when they're at a high point and expecting a downturn.

Livestock farmers are less fortunate in this respect - a double solution in this case is the government paying back the value of the animal (increased taxes as a consequence) and an increase of food prices to realistic prices. Most of the developed world lives based on unrealistic expectations of cost to value, and often does so by simply passing the buck to the environment or underpaid labour..... but I deviate from the original topic :redface:
 
Then get another job that isn't so fringe that the reintroduction of a species can end it's ability to turn a profit and cause layoffs:p

I suspect that wolves being returned will have some impact on the hunters and outfitters.... but then why not have a limited hunt for wolves and they can make an industry of large predator hunting? Set the LEH hunts for the tail end of peak wolf seasons where there is an expected die off in the immediate future anyways. Put LEH prey hunts when they're at a high point and expecting a downturn.

Livestock farmers are less fortunate in this respect - a double solution in this case is the government paying back the value of the animal (increased taxes as a consequence) and an increase of food prices to realistic prices. Most of the developed world lives based on unrealistic expectations of cost to value, and often does so by simply passing the buck to the environment or underpaid labour..... but I deviate from the original topic :redface:

You're evidently not well informed on the wolf issue surrounding Yellowstone. Up until very recently, it was illegal for a US citizen to shoot a wolf, now they have a limited hunt available in a couple of states, I believe Idaho and Montana.
Like I said in my earlier post, it's really easy to suggest solutions and point fingers when you're not directly affected. I have seen first hand the devastation wolves can have on domestic livestock and the famer's livelihood. To say "find another job" is a downright ignorant comment befitting an uninformed city dweller.

I don't shoot wolves on sight unless they are in the vicinity of livestock. I do the same with coyotes and, unlike many posters in this discussion, put them on the same level of "regalness" as wolves.
Wolves have not exhibited the aggressiveness toward humans as other predators, such as bears, since they have a tendency to frequent areas of low human activity. That's changing. I have spoken to government biologists recently who have indicated to me to expect an influx of wolves over the next few years, as the prey animals in their traditional ranges are disappearing. Aerial counts and our open season on predators in MB confirm this as do reports from hunters and biologists across Canada.

I'm not suggesting an all out extermination, but let's stop presenting the wolf as a "do no wrong" predator.
 
You're evidently not well informed on the wolf issue surrounding Yellowstone. Up until very recently, it was illegal for a US citizen to shoot a wolf, now they have a limited hunt available in a couple of states, I believe Idaho and Montana.
Like I said in my earlier post, it's really easy to suggest solutions and point fingers when you're not directly affected. I have seen first hand the devastation wolves can have on domestic livestock and the famer's livelihood. To say "find another job" is a downright ignorant comment befitting an uninformed city dweller.

I don't shoot wolves on sight unless they are in the vicinity of livestock. I do the same with coyotes and, unlike many posters in this discussion, put them on the same level of "regalness" as wolves.
Wolves have not exhibited the aggressiveness toward humans as other predators, such as bears, since they have a tendency to frequent areas of low human activity. That's changing. I have spoken to government biologists recently who have indicated to me to expect an influx of wolves over the next few years, as the prey animals in their traditional ranges are disappearing. Aerial counts and our open season on predators in MB confirm this as do reports from hunters and biologists across Canada.

I'm not suggesting an all out extermination, but let's stop presenting the wolf as a "do no wrong" predator.
Montana's problem with livestock depredation is miniscule. Here is a quote form the Montana Fish and Wildlife website:

From 1995-2004, authorities confirmed 167 cattle, 397 sheep, 25 dogs and nine llamas were lost to wolf depredation in Montana. Some stockgrowers, however, have experienced other "unconfirmed" losses they suspect were due to wolves. So far, most depredation incidents investigated by Wildlife Services within Montana occurred on private land. Although wolves cause a small number of the total livestock losses in Montana compared to other sources of livestock mortality-like weather, disease, and reproductive problems-personal financial losses may result directly from wolf depredation.

http://fwp.mt.gov/wildthings/wolf/wolfQandA.html#livestock

That's over a 9 year period, and ranchers were compensated.

In Washington State there was a big hubub about wolf predation - based on a dozen head of livestock.

It seems that the ranchers have a zero tolerance attitude - no losses form wolves are to be tolerated even though disease, weather, and other predators take many, many more head.

Why the huge hysteria about wolves? Too much Brothers Grimm?

They are predators, they will take livestock, and need controls. They do not prey on humans in North America.

They definitely can do wrong, but I am disgusted by people that deliberately demonize them with false information and emotion.
 
Montana's problem with livestock depredation is miniscule. Here is a quote form the Montana Fish and Wildlife website:

From 1995-2004, authorities confirmed 167 cattle, 397 sheep, 25 dogs and nine llamas were lost to wolf depredation in Montana. Some stockgrowers, however, have experienced other "unconfirmed" losses they suspect were due to wolves. So far, most depredation incidents investigated by Wildlife Services within Montana occurred on private land. Although wolves cause a small number of the total livestock losses in Montana compared to other sources of livestock mortality-like weather, disease, and reproductive problems-personal financial losses may result directly from wolf depredation.

http://fwp.mt.gov/wildthings/wolf/wolfQandA.html#livestock

That's over a 9 year period, and ranchers were compensated.

In Washington State there was a big hubub about wolf predation - based on a dozen head of livestock.

It seems that the ranchers have a zero tolerance attitude - no losses form wolves are to be tolerated even though disease, weather, and other predators take many, many more head.

Why the huge hysteria about wolves? Too much Brothers Grimm?

They are predators, they will take livestock, and need controls. They do not prey on humans in North America.

They definitely can do wrong, but I am disgusted by people that deliberately demonize them with false information and emotion.

Did it ever occur that your government stats could be inaccurate, considering these are the people who introduced them?
My neighbor lost over 20 calves to wolves last winter, there's no need to try and "educate" me on wolf predation.
I would certainly expect you afford the same courtesy and understanding toward other predators, such as coyotes for instance.
 
Did it ever occur that your government stats could be inaccurate, considering these are the people who introduced them?
My neighbor lost over 20 calves to wolves last winter, there's no need to try and "educate" me on wolf predation.
I would certainly expect you afford the same courtesy and understanding toward other predators, such as coyotes for instance.
Could government stats be inaccurate? Yes.

Is it likely that there is a conspiracy to fudge numbers to protect a pet project? No. The livestock owners are organized, and can do a tally themselves, so fabrications could easily be exposed.

You neighbor may well have lost 20 calves to wolves - but I wonder how firm the evidence is that they were wolf kills and not coyote kills ........

In your neighbor's case, the wolves need to be controlled.

Apparently the finding in the US is that most wolf kills are repeat kills from single individuals or small groups that have learned to take livestock. Once those individuals are eliminated, the problem goes away.

Livestock killing is rare enough that biologists consider it an aberrant behavior for a timber wolf.

I consider coyotes and wolves differently for a couple of reasons. First, the wolves were hunted, poisoned and trapped to near extinction in the US. It has been estimated that the wild population would have been in excess of a million animals before the West was settled. Wolves do not reproduce like coyotes do, so mass culls are unacceptable if you are trying to reintroduce an extirpated native species.

Coyotes, on the other hand, have been subjected to even greater pressure, and their numbers remain largely unaffected - their reproductive ability is remarkable.

The other factor is that wolves represent a healthy and natural ecosystem. In areas where they have been successfully reintroduced, they are an acknowledgement that we are trying to undo a small bit of the vast ecological damage done by human settlement. Let's remember that the entire prairie ecosystem was destroyed, not just the buffalo and the wolf.

The general public appreciates the wolf as a symbol of the truly wild, and it can be used to create public awareness and support of restoration projects.

In Algonquin Park, they hold wolf howls - and the events are so popular that the venues are always packed by people that want to hear.

As I said before, it is preferable by far to re-establish a healthy, natural ecosystem and to pay compensation for livestock losses, than to allow ranchers to dictate wildlife policy. They have shown that, as a group, they are not interested in any compromise, and have fought tooth and nail against the re-introduction program.

BTW, I am not questioning the experiences you recount here. I am bothered by other posters who play up the "old" image of the wolf as some sort of especially dangerous predator, of humans: records of the last hundred years show that to be a baldfaced lie. If people simply dismiss the available hard data from half a century of field research because they don't believe it, there is no point in arguing with them. They have a fixed opinion that goes against the evidence, so their willful blindness is their problem to sort out.
 
Last edited:
Let's say ,hypothetically of course, wolves have a detrimental effect on the aviation industry, you lose your job and livelihood........................still feel the same way?

Sometimes it's good to think outside the box......... ;)

You have a very valid point bear, I came from farming (chickens, then small scale beef) and have to admit have shot scores of pigeons and crows over years to stop disease. Shot my share of yotes at our later operation so I have small familiarity with your concerns, nowhere near your scale.

I see you and other farmers and ranchers as having a much more legitimate plight, a lot of guys in this thread the closest they've come to ranching and wolves is watching movies. And yet a bunch of guys who have no livestock are pushing an ignorant shoot on sight mentality even in open woods where the Wolves live and the weekend warrior hunters seem to think they are lord. Wolves are incredibly important apex predators and for probably 99.9% of Canadians pose zero issues, you are in the fractional percentage that has a legitimate concern, to be sure.
 
I get about 40-60 coyotes during the winter months and generally 4-7 wolves. The one in the above picture was shot at 110 yards with my Kimber in 308 using 150 grain TTSX. The hide is in the freezer and the carcass is outside the shop with chickadees pecking the fat. It was last years young(2010), a female and probably weighed around 70 lbs. She had some of the nicest fur I've seen.

Are we done playing Internet biologist people?

That is a coywolf at best.... also known as a red wolf....

red_wolf.jpg
 
Back
Top Bottom