Pistol Sights, Point of Aim, Point of Impact

luke s

luke s

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I have been shooting pistols for about one year and I have one major frustration: the sight picture.

I own norinco pistols (1911 0.45, NP-22, etc). They shoot just fine but the sights have been set to the 6 o'clock sight picture (meaning that I have to aim below my target to hit the center). This is fine for larger round targets, but when shooting at a small dot or small metal target, I have to "guess" how much lower to aim to hit the small target.

I typically shoot 25 yards at my range.

This "guess" has to also change depending on the distance to the target. This has become increasingly more annoying as I get into action shooting sports such as IPSC.

Spending $200+ on new sights an gunsmith installation on a $400 pistol seems unreasonable at the time. What can I do at home to get my pistol to shot where I aim. I can file the sights for now, but which to file? front or back.

I also reload my ammo and go for the minor power factor of 125. How much of an effect does load development have on POA vs POI.
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As an alternative, can someone recommend a good adjustable rear sight that in not outrageously priced? As these are cheap guns, I have already practiced some gunsmithing work on them, maybe I can install the sights myself
 
To raise the point of aim you need to shorten the front sight or raise the rear.

You will never be able to get the POI to be the same as the POA at every range as the sights are above the bore. This is called sight offset, but is not a super big deal on handguns as the sights are relatively close to the bore.

If you want to get it right for 25m, you could stand at that distance and slowly file a little bit off the front sight until the POI is where you want it. And it will be really close at other ranges.

Also if you smith is charging you $200 for a front sight and install shop around that seems high. You can do it your self, order a front sight from brownells for $9 to $50 and install it with a brass punch.

http://**w.brownells.com/.aspx/cid=...g)/f_a=1/Products/All/search=1911_front_sight

Shawn
 
He's hitting high. Don't file it. Get a adjustable rear sight to lower the rear sight if your poi is higher than poa
 
Fixed sights have three advantages ---- sturdiness and compactness (rear sight) and once zeroed, will stay put.

I would rather have these advantages and just learn to compensate for different ranges.

Unless you are into bullseye shooting, there is no need for pinpoint accuracy, as in hitting exactly where you aim

Most pistolcraft disciplines are designed around both decent accuracy and decent speed. Only bullseye shooting demands pinpoint accuracy given you are allowed time between shots.

So if my fixed sights are regulated to hit groups that are two inches high at 15 meters, I am GTG.
 
I brought up the $200 for an install, because the norinco slides apparently dont have a standard cut in the slide and needs to be re-machined. Other than that I would do it myself.

good advice all around so far thought, many different viewpoints



Maybe someone who has changed the rear sight on a norinco can chime in with their experience?
 
luke s said:
I brought up the $200 for an install, because the norinco slides apparently dont have a standard cut in the slide and needs to be re-machined. Other than that I would do it myself.....Maybe someone who has changed the rear sight on a norinco can chime in with their experience?
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200 sounds about right for the sights and gunsmithing.

FYI, pardon the long windedness, but a shooting buddy bought a Norkie two-tone Sport with Champion rear, FO front, aluminum long trigger, Smith Alexander magwell/straight MSH, 5 Norinco magazines, all installation, tuning work and trigger job by the skilled and famous Roger Kotanko, slightly used for $485 shipped. Beautiful piece which I would have bought for myself if my friend passed on it. First time out, my friend fired 125 rounds through it with not a single FTF/FTE with my reloads of homecast 230 (239 actual) grain Lee TC TL bullets over 5 grains Universal. What a deal!

All told, this pistol probably cost the seller close to 800 dlrs to build and he sold it for $445 net...yup plus shipping which was 40 bucks.

What I am trying to say is this. If your thinking of re-selling, you will not recover your cost, but then the enjoyment is priceless:D
 
If the rear sight is good, weld it up to increase height then file to sight-in. Relatively cheap, if the results are not great, then spend the bucks.
 
how high is it ? 2" @ 25yds? the odpl/idpa target is about 2.5" to the centre head shot, from the shoulder. @ shorter ranges point of aim is good enough, just put your target on top of the front sight. if this won't work for you, get an adj rear, zero @ 25yds, & hold centre 0 to 50 & you'll be close enough for ipsc/odpl. so far as load goes re: poi/poa there is very little diff for action shooting [or bulls eye for that matter]. speed is king , & your only trying to hit a beer case @ 10/15 yds, remember your choice of firearm is duty/service & is only capable of 3"@ 25 yds @ best & thats out of a ransom rest.
 
Maybe someone who has changed the rear sight on a norinco can chime in with their experience?[/QUOTE]

I changed sights on a Norinco .45 a while back, substituting a Hi Viz FO front sight and an adjustable rear for the originals. It was a little tricky staking the front sight, but it worked out OK. The rear sight required a bit of brass shim stock for a tight fit, but nothing required machining.
 
Since you're having to aim low to hit the target you ONLY need a taller front sight. I'd be surprised if it's that hard to find one to fit the Norc. Even if it means having to find something that's close but needs a bit of filing to fit. Doing a simple front sight swap should not cost anything like $200.
 
The NP29s on which I have installed new sights accepted front and rear sights made for traditional Colt 1911 pistols. The front sight uses the narrow style peg. A proper front sight staking tool is a really good idea for installing one of these sights.
I used the MGW sights from Brownells. Good sights, straightforeward installattion. Unfortunately, last I checked MGW isn't registered for export.
If the OP is using a six o' clock hold to hit the target, the pistol is shooting high. If a gun is shooting high, the rear sight is lowered, or the front sight raised.
Sights can be adjusted to give the hold preferred by the shooter. I use M&Ps for service pistol competition, and these are zeroed so that the POI is under the fiber optic dot. At different distances, the aim is shaded appropriately.
 
Lodi said:
That's backwards, a taller front sight will push the muzzle lower.
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You are correct but the OP is hitting high so he needs to lower his MPI and as Tiriaq and others have said he requires a taller front sight or lower the rear sight.
 
I would strongly encourage you to learn to use standard fixed sights with a 6 oclock hold. There is good reason that is the standard sight picture for pistol shooters everywhere.

I know it is frustrating when you are learning, but once you do get it you will be able to pick up any pistol with standard sights and hit what you are aiming at. Same goes with trigger tuning; if you adjust yourself to the pistol instead of the other way around you will learn real skill that you will have for the rest of your life. If you become accustomed to rifle picture style of sighting you will feel the need to modify every pistol you buy to that.

I don't understand other poster's comments about the 6 oclock hold not being accurate - that is the hold that is used in bullseye. I find it faster than a rifle sight style of hold as well for IPSC.
 
I love a 6 o'clock hold. That way I can see the target rather than obscuring it with the sights. I work my rifle zeroes slightly 6 o'clock as well (with irons that is).
 
I have the opposite problem with my recently-acquired T-Series Browning HiPower, which seems to be shooting a bit low (with a 6 o'clock hold)- this using 124 gn. ammo. However, since I am also shooting a bit to the left and am rather out of practice, I'm putting this down trigger control until I've put more lead downrange. Unfortunately it's not a pistol that is amenable to swapping out the sights, and filing down the front sight doesn't appeal to me as those sights are no longer available if I muck it up. (And I believe the slide is too thin to have a dovetail cut into it without hitting the barrel bushing.)

:) Stuart
 
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