VERY Interesting IPSC Rule Question for Production…
- Thread starter Crosswind
- Start date
Wrong...
Stop making #### up
Stop making #### up
its true, it only applies to loaded gun starts. If the competitor doesn't have the appropriate start condition he gets a false start, too many false starts and it gets ugly
Mike, i think you have to read the whole rule which is:Handguns deemed by IPSC to be single-action-only are prohibited.
Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked. First shot
attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after
the issuance of the start signal and prior to attempting the first shot, #### the
hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one
procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not
be assessed in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires
the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these
cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action.
i have bolded the part that says the first shot attempt must be double action. Racking the gun is not making an attempt of the first shot being double action.
For those interested there is a debate going on in the Global Village. I totally disagree with Vince's stance.
Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked. First shot
attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after
the issuance of the start signal and prior to attempting the first shot, #### the
hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one
procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not
be assessed in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires
the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these
cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action.
i have bolded the part that says the first shot attempt must be double action. Racking the gun is not making an attempt of the first shot being double action.
For those interested there is a debate going on in the Global Village. I totally disagree with Vince's stance.
okay i will pose a question. to the ro's and cros on here that have more knowledge of the rule book.
if said person manages to do what he is saying on stage 1 , then on stage 2 and on stage 3 ppl in his group is noticing a trend , then again on stage 4 , now the interest is to the RM on the range , then stage 5 comes and it happens again. wouldn't that be a "unsportsmanlike" and become a DQ?
if said person manages to do what he is saying on stage 1 , then on stage 2 and on stage 3 ppl in his group is noticing a trend , then again on stage 4 , now the interest is to the RM on the range , then stage 5 comes and it happens again. wouldn't that be a "unsportsmanlike" and become a DQ?
I wouldn't think so...
My. 02
Regarding Mike's interpretation (which may actually survive an arbitration if no additional rule-book clarifications are made)...what this does is expose a poorly written rule. If there is any real confusion...our NROI reps can put there heads together and let us know.
I can't bring myself to read the GV thread...so in absence of that here's how I would address it.
If the shooter loads a mag but not the chamber and:
(a) Draws...Pulls the trigger while on target, thus attempting a DA first shot...no penalty (other than the time he has already wasted) Special attention paid as per Marks comment about the dry fire while not on a target...
(b) Draws...racks and carries on...it is a procedural for the first shot not being attempted in DA
Neither would move you to another Division, or result in a re-shoot...or a DQ for unsportsmanlike like. (there is no DQ for stupidity)
There's no advantage to trying this...complete waste of time IMHO...so by all means go ahead
I only wish people in Open did such silly things Might move me up a few notches
My. 02
Regarding Mike's interpretation (which may actually survive an arbitration if no additional rule-book clarifications are made)...what this does is expose a poorly written rule. If there is any real confusion...our NROI reps can put there heads together and let us know.
I can't bring myself to read the GV thread...so in absence of that here's how I would address it.
If the shooter loads a mag but not the chamber and:
(a) Draws...Pulls the trigger while on target, thus attempting a DA first shot...no penalty (other than the time he has already wasted) Special attention paid as per Marks comment about the dry fire while not on a target...
(b) Draws...racks and carries on...it is a procedural for the first shot not being attempted in DA
Neither would move you to another Division, or result in a re-shoot...or a DQ for unsportsmanlike like. (there is no DQ for stupidity)
There's no advantage to trying this...complete waste of time IMHO...so by all means go ahead
I only wish people in Open did such silly things
Might move me up a few notches 
Here is what Vinni has to say from the Global Village:
"After i realise my mistake, can i rack the slide to load a round and shoot s/a without penalty?
No. There are only two exceptions to the PD requirement "First shot attempted must be double action":
1. When the COF requires an empty chamber, as specifically explained in Point 15 of the PD rules; or
2. When you actually attempt to fire your first shot double action, but the chambered round fails to detonate (I call this the "good faith exception").
In the situation as you've described it, you did not have a round chambered when permitted. This means you must firstly chamber a round, then decock your gun, then attempt to fire the chambered round double action. It would obviously be a lot simpler being more alert during LAMR!!
Hope this clarifies. "
and more:
"Tim Andersen, on 11 December 2011 - 05:37 PM, said:
But if you go "click" first and then find out that a round is missing for one reason or another, I'd give no proc.
Erik Toennessen, on 11 December 2011 - 05:54 PM, said:
I would do the same as Tim.
"And you would both be wrong! Failure to give a Procedural to a guy with an empty chamber will open the door to people intentionally circumventing the "first shot attempted must be double action" requirement. Also note the rule says first shot, not first trigger pull, must be double action!
You simply cannot attempt a double-action first shot without a chambered round!
And the problem here is neither the rule nor the Procedural. The problem in this case is the competitor failing to be alert during LAMR, but that does not qualify for a mulligan!
.
Vince Pinto
IPSC Secretary
IPSC Handgun Rules Director"
and lastly:
"I expect competitors to comply with the rules, as written, not based on what the Range Officer thinks is fair, on a case-by-case basis. If a competitor fails to attempt their first shot double action (which, I repeat, requires a chambered round), they will incur a penalty. The rules do not give credit for time wasted while overcoming a brain fade.
Moreover, I know people who are capable of drawing their gun, pulling the trigger DA as soon as the gun clears the holster, and then chambering a round right before the gun arrives at eye level, in a smooth motion, without wasting any time, so that they can fire the first round SA.
One of the fundamental aspects of PD is firing the first shot double action. If you fail to do so, you get a penalty. I also repeat: the rule says first shot, not first trigger pull, must be double action, and those words were chosen very carefully for a reason.
I also refer you to the Glossary definition of the word "Shot" (A bullet which passes completely through the barrel of a firearm).
Vince Pinto
IPSC Secretary
IPSC Handgun Rules Director"
Seems to be pretty clear to me.
Take Care
Bob
"After i realise my mistake, can i rack the slide to load a round and shoot s/a without penalty?
No. There are only two exceptions to the PD requirement "First shot attempted must be double action":
1. When the COF requires an empty chamber, as specifically explained in Point 15 of the PD rules; or
2. When you actually attempt to fire your first shot double action, but the chambered round fails to detonate (I call this the "good faith exception").
In the situation as you've described it, you did not have a round chambered when permitted. This means you must firstly chamber a round, then decock your gun, then attempt to fire the chambered round double action. It would obviously be a lot simpler being more alert during LAMR!!
Hope this clarifies. "
and more:
"Tim Andersen, on 11 December 2011 - 05:37 PM, said:
But if you go "click" first and then find out that a round is missing for one reason or another, I'd give no proc.
Erik Toennessen, on 11 December 2011 - 05:54 PM, said:
I would do the same as Tim.
"And you would both be wrong! Failure to give a Procedural to a guy with an empty chamber will open the door to people intentionally circumventing the "first shot attempted must be double action" requirement. Also note the rule says first shot, not first trigger pull, must be double action!
You simply cannot attempt a double-action first shot without a chambered round!
And the problem here is neither the rule nor the Procedural. The problem in this case is the competitor failing to be alert during LAMR, but that does not qualify for a mulligan!
.
Vince Pinto
IPSC Secretary
IPSC Handgun Rules Director"
and lastly:
"I expect competitors to comply with the rules, as written, not based on what the Range Officer thinks is fair, on a case-by-case basis. If a competitor fails to attempt their first shot double action (which, I repeat, requires a chambered round), they will incur a penalty. The rules do not give credit for time wasted while overcoming a brain fade.
Moreover, I know people who are capable of drawing their gun, pulling the trigger DA as soon as the gun clears the holster, and then chambering a round right before the gun arrives at eye level, in a smooth motion, without wasting any time, so that they can fire the first round SA.
One of the fundamental aspects of PD is firing the first shot double action. If you fail to do so, you get a penalty. I also repeat: the rule says first shot, not first trigger pull, must be double action, and those words were chosen very carefully for a reason.
I also refer you to the Glossary definition of the word "Shot" (A bullet which passes completely through the barrel of a firearm).
Vince Pinto
IPSC Secretary
IPSC Handgun Rules Director"
Seems to be pretty clear to me.
Take Care
Bob
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CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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I disagree with Vince's logic
The attempt is in pulling of the trigger D/A with sights on target.
The attempt is there regardless of whether there is an actual cartridge chambered.
There is no quantifiable difference to unloaded chamber, light primer strike/Misfire etc.
The 1st shot was attempted double action in all cases.
The actual status of the 1st cartridge is moot. Loaded or not, defective or not.
The result is the same and requires the same actions to resolve.
The attempt is in pulling of the trigger D/A with sights on target.
The attempt is there regardless of whether there is an actual cartridge chambered.
There is no quantifiable difference to unloaded chamber, light primer strike/Misfire etc.
The 1st shot was attempted double action in all cases.
The actual status of the 1st cartridge is moot. Loaded or not, defective or not.
The result is the same and requires the same actions to resolve.
I only wish people in Open did such silly things
Or you could, you know, practice...
One of the reasons I still enjoy Open so much, aside from the fact that the guns are REALLY cool, is that there is almost zero rules issues with the gun and gear. When you are allowed to do anything you want there can't be any complaints or protests. You can't game out something where anything is allowed...lol
You're kidding right
Finger inside trigger guard while not engaging target is a no no...
Or you could, you know, practice...
No...this will be much easier.
You're kidding right
Finger inside trigger guard while not engaging target is a no no...
which is exactly the reason why you can't decock your gun after start signal
which is exactly the reason why you can't decock your gun after start signal
unless you have a de-cocker model.
I wouldn't think so...
My. 02
Regarding Mike's interpretation (which may actually survive an arbitration if no additional rule-book clarifications are made)...what this does is expose a poorly written rule. If there is any real confusion...our NROI reps can put there heads together and let us know.
I can't bring myself to read the GV thread...so in absence of that here's how I would address it.
If the shooter loads a mag but not the chamber and:
(a) Draws...Pulls the trigger while on target, thus attempting a DA first shot...no penalty (other than the time he has already wasted) Special attention paid as per Marks comment about the dry fire while not on a target...
(b) Draws...racks and carries on...it is a procedural for the first shot not being attempted in DA
Neither would move you to another Division, or result in a re-shoot...or a DQ for unsportsmanlike like. (there is no DQ for stupidity)
There's no advantage to trying this...complete waste of time IMHO...so by all means go ahead
I only wish people in Open did such silly things
Think my point was missed, if it's a noticed trend with one shooter over the course of a match , Stage after stage. It might not be a advantage compared to top shooters but it might be an advantage to him over other shooters in his class of shooters which In turn gives him an upper hand and there for a trophy.
Sorry...I was answering multiple posts in my reply
I got your point...I just don't think it meets the criteria of an Unsportsmanlike conduct DQ.
I also don't think it would give anyone an advantage, regardless of Classification.
Do a little test...think of your last few matches and how many stages this would have been anything but a complete waste of time.
I got your point...I just don't think it meets the criteria of an Unsportsmanlike conduct DQ.
I also don't think it would give anyone an advantage, regardless of Classification.
Do a little test...think of your last few matches and how many stages this would have been anything but a complete waste of time.
