VERY Interesting IPSC Rule Question for Production…

If the range command is "Load and Make Ready" and all you have done is complied with the "Load" command then how do you answer the "Are you Ready?" command with a "yes", when clearly you are not "Ready"?. Do you get the penalty for not following the range commands?
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If you did the same thing in open or standard would you expect a panalty??
 
There is no right and wrong answer to the RO's "Are you Ready?

It is up to the competitor to determine if his/her state of readiness is optimal for the challenge that lies ahead and wrt the written stage briefings.

The RO could, however, determine that a competitor is not ready if he shooter does not have eye and ear protection. But an RO will start a Prod. competitor with an empty chamber and then assign a procedural if the competitor's 1st shot is not DA.
 
the DA shot with my shadow still screws me up. I practice it at home, dryfiring at the tv or at the range dropping the hammer for every shot and practice, but when it comes to IPSC. I take 3 shots at the 1st target and call it a day. I'm not confident in my ability to make the DA shot, but it's just faster to call it a wash and take an extra shot.

99% of the time (that I've seen in my limited experience) shooting the stage as it was intended is the fastest way. If people want to burn out their braincells trying to game and bend the rules, let them go ahead. I perfer to rely on my skill (lol ya right) or more like the lack of it! So long as they aren't breaking a rule or causing a safety issue then let them do it! I perfer to practice and my myelf better... then again that is pretty slow going!
 
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colecreek said:
There is no right and wrong answer to the RO's "Are you Ready?

It is up to the competitor to determine if his/her state of readiness is optimal for the challenge that lies ahead and wrt the written stage briefings.

The RO could, however, determine that a competitor is not ready if he shooter does not have eye and ear protection. But an RO will start a Prod. competitor with an empty chamber and then assign a procedural if the competitor's 1st shot is not DA.
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In the context of the range commands "Load" addresses the insertion of a loaded magazine. "Make Ready" is the act of chambering a round. One would assume the question. "Are you ready?" is asking if the gun is loaded with a round in the chamber, not are you ready to play.

Personally I think you have to fire the first shot DA. Pulling the trigger on an empty chamber is not firing the first shot DA in my view.

Take Care

Bob
 
8.3.2 Are You Ready
"The lack of a negative response from the competitor indicates that he fully understands the requirements of the course of fire and is ready to proceed. .... It is suggested that when the competitor is ready he should assume the required start position to indicate his readiness to the RO."

Readiness has nothing to do with whether the firearm is loaded or not, it relates to whether the competitor wants to proceed and play, or not.

Rule 8.1. Handgun Ready Condition
"...However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the wsb, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the RO must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun."

Agreed that a dry fire is not a DA first shot.
 
It seems that it's easier to just alter the target engagement order to allow you to shoot your first round at one of the more closely spaced targets.

Also something that hasn't been considered so far by the "dump the first DA round then aim the rest" crowd. In a stage with limited Vickers the round count is fixed. So that first DA round has to count for as much as it can.

It appears that it would be better to just work on perfecting one's DA trigger skills than to try to find work arounds that won't be able to apply in every case.
 
If you draw and attempt to fire at the target and then rack and continue, no penalty. If you draw, rack and then shoot your first shot single action you get the penalty. The rules specify first shot must be attempted double action. Only unloaded gun stages are exempted from this. If you are that worries about your first shot, practice more. Double action is not any harder to shoot than single action. Anyone who purposely throws their first shot so they can try that so called hard target in single action is in my opinion needing to go home and learn how their gun works.
 
The rule in appedix d states
Competitors in this Division who, after
the issuance of the start signal and prior to attempting the first shot, #### the
hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one
procedural penalty per occurrence.
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In the case discussed the handgun is neither loaded, nor is the hammer cocked.
The unloaded pistol has the slide racked.

How can a procedural be assessed in the case discussed.
 
I keep thinking "first shot must be attempted in DA" is pretty straight forward. I have never seen anyone try this and i am not sure it would be of any advantage even if no penalties were issued.
 
Slavex said:
If you draw and attempt to fire at the target and then rack and continue, no penalty. If you draw, rack and then shoot your first shot single action you get the penalty. The rules specify first shot must be attempted double action. Only unloaded gun stages are exempted from this. If you are that worries about your first shot, practice more. Double action is not any harder to shoot than single action. Anyone who purposely throws their first shot so they can try that so called hard target in single action is in my opinion needing to go home and learn how their gun works.
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So in summary, if a shooter forgets to load his chamber before the start signal, he's obligated to dryfire DA before racking slide or else take a procedural?

An unlikely situation could come up when a shooter starts moving towards his first shooting position, then realizes half-way there that his chamber's empty. The RO probably already knows about the empty chamber, so he'll be checking that the shooter doesn't rack slide before dryfiring DA? Even if the RO hear's the shooter say "oh s**t I forgot to chamber!"?
 
The shooter is not obligated to dry fire DA, but he will if he actually forgot to chamber a round. If the shooter immediately draws and racks the gun on the draw I would say he purposely was trying to get around the first DA shot and assess 1 procedural.
 
Yes, penalty and the circumstance happen frequently with new shooters. As for the original shooting part of the question of one used the time taken to just aim, it would be worth more.
Ipsik as for question he is cocking the hammer by racking the gun. If he does that before making his first trigger pull attempt its a procedural . Yes he's eating it on time but tough titties.
 
The IPSC rules are also pretty much rigid in their application. It doesn't matter what you did or didn't do to reach that state where you rack and then shoot. The rule book doesn't care if honestly forgot or you're trying out for an Oscar for best acting. It just says that the first shot attempt must be DA.

The rule on cocking the hammer and shooting doesn't take into account the "why" or "how". If you honestly didn't chamber a round and opt to rack the slide without doing a DA dry fire it's still a procedural because your first shot was SA from a hammer which was cocked at some point after the start signal. To make it "right" and avoid a procedural you'd have to rack and then decock before your first shot attempt. Or you just go ahead, aim downrange, pull the first DA attempt and then rack and carry on.

Actually there is an alternative. If you rack and shoot the first shot without taking a DA pull first you have the option of accepting a procedural or being bumped up to Standard for the scoring of the entire match. Since Standard is allowed to shoot SA for the first shot that's the only option for avoiding a procedural.
 
I know that there was something that a competitor could do when in Production that would result in his scores being switched to Standard. But it was a while back that I was told this. Or perhaps the RO that told me was mistaken.
 
BCRider said:
I know that there was something that a competitor could do when in Production that would result in his scores being switched to Standard. But it was a while back that I was told this. Or perhaps the RO that told me was mistaken.
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The RO is mistaken, if you fail to meet the requirements of your declared division you would get bumped to Open regardless of what division you "started" in.
 
As someone said IPSC is sticky in their application of the rules, read the rule and you will see it only applies to a loaded gun with a round in the chamber.

If the chamber was empty then you cannot possibly fire the first round DA so if the shooter racks a gun with an empty chamber it seems perfectly correct to me.

Why do you all want to penalize the shooter who started with an empty chamber?

Just because that's what you think the rule was written for? Did you write the rule?
 
its true, it only applies to loaded gun starts. If the competitor doesn't have the appropriate start condition he gets a false start, too many false starts and it gets ugly :(
 
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