Storing Handguns

Jesuswon said:
is a metal gun cabinet(c tire) considered a safe?
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jackrabbit000 said:
No.
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Hawkshadow said:
No, it's a cabinet.
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Actually, I would argue that one of the Stack-On containers does meet the definition of a safe as it:

1. Is constructed of Metal (or of strong construction).
2. Is provided with a secure lock.
3. Is used for storing valuables (guns in this case).

Remember, the word "safe" is not defined in the Firearms Act, and when reverting to the dictionary definition of the word "safe", the Stack-On container does fall within that definition.

American Heritage Dictionary said:
1. A metal container usually having a lock, used for storing valuables.
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Collins English Dictionary said:
1. a strong container, usually of metal and provided with a secure lock, for storing money or valuables
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Ar180shooter said:
Actually, I would argue that one of the Stack-On containers does meet the definition of a safe as it:

1. Is constructed of Metal (or of strong construction).
2. Is provided with a secure lock.
3. Is used for storing valuables (guns in this case).

Remember, the word "safe" is not defined in the Firearms Act, and when reverting to the dictionary definition of the word "safe", the Stack-On container does fall within that definition.
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Stack ons are specifically marketed as "gun cabinets".

I understand your argument, and in the Henry Barnes case the judge ruled his stack on cabinets were safes, but they were modified with steel bars to be more secure.

In the end it is all open to the judges interpretation, and I don't want to be standing in front of some anti gun Liberal judge, with nothing but a dictionary to argue my case, when the prodecution has stack on marketing clearly labelling their own product a cabinet.

I guess I am just not a risk taker. ;)
 
Ouch mlehtovaara, wait till I tell a guy I know that he's breaking the law by storing his handguns in his $1,100, nearly 600 lb Stock-on combo safe, that's both waterproof and fireproof. He's gonna be pissed!

And to think he was bragging about his expensive safe awhile back! haha
 
Hell, no. Why? It's not legally required, and serves no useful purpose. It makes even less sense than trigger locking non-restricteds during transport.
 
In an approved locked Gun Cabinet...I trigger lock all my restricteds and remove the bolts from my bolt-action rifles. The non-restricted rimfires and shotguns do not wear locks but the actions are open.
My ammo is stored in another approved locked Gun Cabinet on the other side of the basement. Both cabinets are well hidden.
 
Skyhawk said:
Ouch mlehtovaara, wait till I tell a guy I know that he's breaking the law by storing his handguns in his $1,100 700lb Stock-on combo safe, that's both waterproof and fireproof. He's gonna be pissed!

And to think he was bragging about his expensive safe awhile back! haha
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Stack on sells both safes and cabinets.

They do differentiate between the 2 though.
 
mlehtovaara said:
Stack on sells both safes and cabinets.

They do differentiate between the 2 though.
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What is the difference? The fireproofing? Perhaps by cabinet, the Canadian law means a "real" cabinet, such as that made out of wood and attached to a wall that is commonly used for storage, like in the kitchen or in our reloading room? Do you know the legal distinction? Does stack-on's use of the term specifically comply with the legal distinction that defines it as a "cabinet"? Why then would stack-on's "gun cabinets" be California DOJ compliant for safe storage as advertised? Is California that much more permissive than Canada?

If it's made out of steel and bolted from the inside to the wall studs and floor joists and has a lock that's not easy to open, I doubt the court would make much of a case on the semantics of what it is marketed under. And how would the police even know, unless they carry the Stack-on brochure around with them?

I think that's getting a tad silly. I think those who invest in the "cheap" $700 Stack-on model that they advertise as a "gun cabinet" are likely ok.
 
mlehtovaara said:
Stack ons are specifically marketed as "gun cabinets".

I understand your argument, and in the Henry Barnes case the judge ruled his stack on cabinets were safes, but they were modified with steel bars to be more secure.

In the end it is all open to the judges interpretation, and I don't want to be standing in front of some anti gun Liberal judge, with nothing but a dictionary to argue my case, when the prodecution has stack on marketing clearly labelling their own product a cabinet.

I guess I am just not a risk taker. ;)
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So? If I manufacture a copy of an AK-47 and market it as an SKS, does that make it an SKS?

My point is that a manufacturers claims mean nothing when trying to define something. Although case law can impact this, in the Barnes case, did the judge in his ruling provide any reference to the legal status of an unmodified Stack-On cabinet? Also, at what point does a lockable metal cabinet become a safe? What guidelines are to be followed? Where do these guidelines exist in law?

Way too many unanswered questions here.

I would also feel confident if I were to have to defend my treating the Stack-On cabinet as a safe.

In any such case, there would be 2 essential questions that must be answered.

1. If the Stack-On cabinet is a safe, were the firearms stored properly?
2. Is the Stack-On cabinet a safe?

The cabinet has solid metal construction, a secure lock with 3 locking points, and it is designed to store firearms. How does this not fall within the definition of a safe?
 
Ar180shooter said:
My point is that a manufacturers claims mean nothing when trying to define something. Although case law can impact this, in the Barnes case, did the judge in his ruling provide any reference to the legal status of an unmodified Stack-On cabinet?
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You have been here long enough to know that the RCMP has used marketing to make their rulings over and over again. The logic of the police and courts may be different but in cases such as the GSG MP5, the S&W MP15-22, the Ruger BX mags, marketing has been used to determine their legality!
 
sewktbk said:
Nope. no trigger locks.

unloaded, in the safe, full mag right next to each.
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Same here, but for good measure I have a print out of the safe transport and storage regulations taped to the side of the safe.

Just in case the inspecting officer doesn't know or needs a refresher of the storage laws.

;)
 
DonNB said:
Same here, but for good measure I have a print out of the safe transport and storage regulations taped to the side of the safe.

Just in case the inspecting officer doesn't know or needs a refresher of the storage laws.

;)
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Got that too! :cheers:
 
For my rarely used prohib semis, I remove the barrel and slide,
putting a cable lock through the barrel.
Even though it's in a certified gun "Safe", I take the extra precaution to trigger lock it. And one can never be too carefull with securing the menacing 12-6 weapons,
so I tack-weld the frame to the inside of the safe.
Does take time to ready it for range time, but I sleep well at night.
 
mlehtovaara said:
You have been here long enough to know that the RCMP has used marketing to make their rulings over and over again. The logic of the police and courts may be different but in cases such as the GSG MP5, the S&W MP15-22, the Ruger BX mags, marketing has been used to determine their legality!
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I'm agreeing here, and with the cabinet is not a safe arguement. My personal definition of a safe is something that can't be opened with a crowbar/my foot. I own a Stack-on cabinet: it's made of spray painted tin foil. My ammo box built of 3/4" plywood is far stronger than these things.
 
smelly pete said:
I'm agreeing here, and with the cabinet is not a safe arguement. My personal definition of a safe is something that can't be opened with a crowbar/my foot. I own a Stack-on cabinet: it's made of spray painted tin foil. My ammo box built of 3/4" plywood is far stronger than these things.
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And there's the other side of the medal too.

I can't remember names, but there was a judge here in Canada who ruled that a stack-on cabinet met the requirements to be deemed a safe. The accusee was therefore acquitted of unsafe storage charges.
 
sewktbk said:
And there's the other side of the medal too.

I can't remember names, but there was a judge here in Canada who ruled that a stack-on cabinet met the requirements to be deemed a safe. The accusee was therefore acquitted of unsafe storage charges.
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It was the henry barnes case, but as I have mentioned his Stack On was reinforced with steel bars.

Regardless this case is not precedent setting, so it can only be used to help sway the opinion of the judge, but not force their ruling. All an anti judge would have to do is point out the extra steps Barnes took to enforce it to make a distinction.

It does help but I wouldn't bet thousands in legal fees, or my gun collection on it! ;)
 
mlehtovaara said:
Stack ons are specifically marketed as "gun cabinets".

I understand your argument, and in the Henry Barnes case the judge ruled his stack on cabinets were safes, but they were modified with steel bars to be more secure.

In the end it is all open to the judges interpretation, and I don't want to be standing in front of some anti gun Liberal judge, with nothing but a dictionary to argue my case, when the prodecution has stack on marketing clearly labelling their own product a cabinet.

I guess I am just not a risk taker. ;)
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I haven't read that decision for a while but I think you'll find Barnes was using office cabinets commonly referred to as lockers that were reinforced with steel bars. Not the Canadian Tire type cabinets. They still fell under the definition of a safe as per an expert because of their contruction.

But you're right, interpretation is what it's all about.
 
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