Kel-Tec su16 vs Robinson xcr

misanthropist said:
there is zero hate in that speech...there is just zero attempt to pull any punches on why I think the XCR should be under a thousand bucks, and the Kel-Tec should be a few hundred.
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Well money where your mouth is time, start a company, buy a facility, three to ten million dollars of machines, hire machinists, CAD / CNC operators, work from scratch and design a proprietary rifle that doesn't use existing cheap as borsch forgings. Then, sell your small-production rifles for less than $1,000 when you put out ten rifles to your competitors thousand rifles.

I don't even own one and frankly I'm amazed they can sell them as CHEAP as they do.
 
Ardent said:
Well said. It's a lot like the Mini-14, Internet dwellers with too much time on their hands and not enough brass on the ground cuss them down, while they keep doing their job perfectly in the field with the non-city folks. The XCR is a better gun than the SU-16, period. It also costs a lot more so they equal out in my eyes.

The AR is a poorer gun in Canada than the XCR because of laws written by bureaucrats. The argument for the AR's superiority is moot as we live in a massive, wilderness-filled country and saying a gun you can use only in tiny little enclaves we call ranges is better, is asinine. Nothing wrong with liking AR's, but it certainly isn't 'better' than the XCR, not in this country.
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That's exactly right, in this country AR's are more suited to competitors, people in the city with no access to the country side/non hunters and of course mall ninja's. It doesn't make any sense comparing a non-restricted to a restricted firearm, they are completely different topics.
 
freddyfour said:
That's exactly right, in this country AR's are more suited to competitors, people in the city with no access to the country side/non hunters and of course mall ninja's. It doesn't make any sense comparing a non-restricted to a restricted firearm, they are completely different topics.
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I don't agree. Why would anyone not want their hunting rifle to have the same quality as their competition gun?
 
joebanana said:
I don't agree. Why would anyone not want their hunting rifle to have the same quality as their competition gun?
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Seems like half this thread would rather give up a really neat non-restricted rifle completely and not have the option because of questionable personal opinion. I'm glad it's here, and think anyone who's dead set against the XCR is out of touch. Range only restricteds are not that far from mall ninja'ing, and I say this having owned and built plenty. Having a non-restricted black rifle as slick as the XCR on the market is a blessing, and it's worth three AR's in my eyes as you can actually use it and take it out of your house without permission. We live in a wild country, and it's hard to value guns you can't use out there. If this were the US, different story, but it's Canada and here the XCR rocks.
 
Ardent said:
Seems like half this thread would rather give up a really neat non-restricted rifle completely and not have the option because of questionable personal opinion. I'm glad it's here, and think anyone who's dead set against the XCR is out of touch. Range only restricteds are not that far from mall ninja'ing, and I say this having owned and built plenty. Having a non-restricted black rifle as slick as the XCR on the market is a blessing, and it's worth three AR's in my eyes as you can actually use it and take it out of your house without permission. We live in a wild country, and it's hard to value guns you can't use out there. If this were the US, different story, but it's Canada and here the XCR rocks.
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Welcome Ardent to the contentious debate over Alex Robinson and the XCR. A debate where a bunch of self righteous and smug proponents of the AR (your gun here) would rather dismiss Alex Robinson and his firearms than acknowledge that there are some of us that are real world shooters who want to put more than holes thru paper with our black rifles.

I don't even have to read the other posts in this thread after reading yours. Its all been said before ad nausem. Thank goodness Wolverine Supplies and other dealers don't believe this drivel or we'd have less choice here in Canada.
 
I've had two ARs and still have one. I had an xcr. I had way less problems with the xcr than any one of the ARs. I sold the xcr for a tavor and have had zero Problems with it either. I don't see what the hype is with the AR15. They're over piced too, feel cheap, need a #### load of lube to run correctly, and gum up with crap way faster than piston guns.
 
Throttle_monkey1 said:
I've had two ARs and still have one. I had an xcr. I had way less problems with the xcr than any one of the ARs. I sold the xcr for a tavor and have had zero Problems with it either. I don't see what the hype is with the AR15. They're over piced too, feel cheap, need a s**t load of lube to run correctly, and gum up with crap way faster than piston guns.
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i have to agree with the post above regarding the AR in some aspects... the upper and lower were somewhat loose, you spend 3 boxes of ammo and then have to clean it for hours afterwards... i still liked shooting it though, i traded it in so i could have at lease one non restricted gun...
 
joebanana said:
misanthropist said:
The XCR is notorious for failure during any high-round-count usage it's put through,


What do you consider high round count?
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nothing insane...say 500 rounds or more per day for two or three days.


It's fine if people want to buy it; I don't care at all what anyone else wants to buy. I am simply explaining why it is not worth the asking price TO ME.

I don't care what it costs to produce. I don't care what it is classified as. I am interested in performance and that's about it, because the type of shooting I do with this sort of rifle is primarily done at ranges anyway.

I have non-restricted guns as well and do plenty of non-paper-shooting. I am fully aware of the interest in non-restricted guns.

However, from a performance perspective, I would not pay more than the cost of a low end AR for an XCR. That does not make me hate-filled, or range-bound, or ignorant, or un-Canadian...it means that I evaluate performance in a particular way and that I will pay money on the basis of that performance.

People who like the XCR have often commented to me that they are free to get one if they like because it's a free country, etc. That's strange to me because I have never, ever suggested otherwise.

However I would claim the even more fundamental freedom of speech: I feel free to state my opinion on the XCR, or any other gun, or any other subject. I generally do not seek out XCR owners to rub their noses in my opinions; I usually comment only if asked, or if there is a general question that I think someone might benefit from hearing a countervailing opinion on.

I am fairly immersed in the whole firearms training scene and consequently I know a lot of people who see a lot of guns through fairly high-volume shooting environments. Quality guns are not bothered by these conditions; poorly built guns are.

I have said many times that if you are looking for a hobby rifle that will not see demanding use and you don't mind tinkering with it from time to time and NR status is important to you, then the XCR is probably fine for what you want.

But I am not going to pretend that it is on par with a properly built AR, or a VZ58, or a number of other guns that DO hold up to high round counts and demanding shooting conditions. It's not. They have issues which frequently crop up under demanding conditions. That's life. Maybe you're someone who says to himself, "well, I don't shoot under demanding conditions". Great! Buy one if it's good enough for you. But please do not confuse that with "as good as gun X". Just because you may not push the limits of a gun does not make them equal...it makes them equal to the task of being YOUR gun.

If you will only ever drive a car from your front door down your 200 foot driveway to pick up the mail and back, a Lada will be as good as a Ferrari. But don't tell yourself that the Lada IS as good as the Ferrari. If you go talk to the guys who train drivers at Nuburgring, they will tell you what cars do well and what cars do not. Don't let emotion prevent you from listening to the advice of people like this...don't get attached to your car just because you bought it. It's a machine, and that's it. If somebody makes a better one, accept that a better machine exists and evaluate it for your purposes. Maybe it isn't worth switching, maybe it is. But the people who know are the people who see a thousand cars a month race at the the track, or a thousand trucks a month drive the rubicon trail, or a thousand guns a month hammered through shooting courses.
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No sure how to put this, by the AR is no Ferrari, and you guys aren't exactly on the Nürburgring. Don't believe everything you've read on the Internet, and none of us are too hardcore or 'real' for an XCR- my AR's and VZ-58 have had equally as many F-ups as my Swiss Arms, M96, or friends XCRs see. In your very own words, don't get married to an image and name. :) If it was all about reliability, durability, and price we'd all be shooting new model Mini-14's and 30's. They'll make AR's blush, but, they're not very 'cool'.
 
misanthropist said:
joebanana said:
I have said many times that if you are looking for a hobby rifle that will not see demanding use and you don't mind tinkering with it from time to time and NR status is important to you, then the XCR is probably fine for what you want.

But I am not going to pretend that it is on par with a properly built AR, or a VZ58, or a number of other guns that DO hold up to high round counts and demanding shooting conditions. It's not. They have issues which frequently crop up under demanding conditions.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply. I'd be interested to read what issues are frequently cropping up? BTW, what courses involve 500 rounds a day?
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Ardent said:
No sure how to put this, by the AR is no Ferrari, and you guys aren't exactly on the Nürburgring. Don't believe everything you've read on the Internet, and none of us are too hardcore or 'real' for an XCR- my AR's and VZ-58 have had equally as many F-ups as my Swiss Arms, M96, or friends XCRs see. In your very own words, don't get married to an image and name. :) If it was all about reliability, durability, and price we'd all be shooting new model Mini-14's and 30's. They'll make AR's blush, but, they're not very 'cool'.
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You have clearly had screwy ARs if you have had more reliable performance out of Mini-30s.

My primary carbine is a 58. I am not wedded to the AR platform by any stretch and my statement is not intended to imply that every AR is the equivalent of a Ferrari...it is meant to point out that there is such a thing as objectively measured performance, and that a person can reject a rifle on the basis of it's performance, which is exactly what I am doing with the XCR and Kel-Tec.

The XCR may be good enough to suit you, or not. Either is fine. But don't presume to tell me it's also good enough for me...my demands may be very different than yours.



Joe, I would say almost every carbine course I have seen burns something like 500 rounds a day. A really light course would maybe be 350 a day? Some round-pounder classes seem to burn a thousand a day but my personal belief is that if I go over 600 or 700 in a day I'm not learning substantially more.

I am not certain that that is the case but that's my general opinion.
 
Silveragent said:
Yes to parts. No the barrel is not swappable. You have to send the receiver and barrel in.
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Negitory on that comment.
Actually when Dlask did the threading on my barrel the figured out that this barrel is screwed in with threads and pinned in place like most thought. Any one with an SU-16F model look at were the barrel meets the reciever. there you will notice a whole and threads on the barrel on top of the nut.
Also to add to misanthropist (A.K.A. Mr. Mil-Spec) every time I take it up to the range I shoot a minimun of 300 to 500 rounds threw this "Matel Toy" nothing wrong with it yet but honestly if the SHTF senerio I am with you that the first rifle I will grab is my CZ 858 out of all the rifles I own.
 
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