Elcan specter DR, how good are they?

[Cpt.Flan]

That is why he almost made me confused...

1X at 300 meters? You got it wrong man.

Zero at 100m at 4X.
Use 1X for shooting under 100 meters obviously.

Now from that 100 meters zero at 4X to let say 50 meters shooting down to 1X magnification there is no way you get a 8MOA shift.

Back to 300 meters shooting? Put it back to 4X and there you go. Same zero.

From 100meters + to infinite you will not use anything else then the 4X IMO. So why be concern of a POI shift if you don't play with the magnification for 100 meters + shots?

1X at 50-75 and under will not make a huge difference.

Now if you zero it at 4X at 100 meters and shoot at 300 on 1X...Well that is another story... And a stupid one IMO...


Cheers.

 

[plainSight Solutions]

Ok,

You've settled on your opinion based on using the optic for something it wasn't designed for. Long range shooting at 1X.

The 1X portion of the optic is optimized for 35 meters or less.

The 4X portion of the optic is optimized for longer ranges.

Yes, zero at 100 with 4X.

Shift to 1X for close-range shots FIRED AT CLOSE RANGE.

Shift back to 4X at 100m and see if you're back on zero. Willing to bet you'll still be at the same POI. THAT is what Return to zero means. (Additionally, removal of the optic from the rail and re-installation will be RTZ, supposing you've properly cleaned the mating surfaces before you install each time.)

I'm willing to also bet that the 1X shots fired at ranges less than 35 meters will NOT be 8 MOA out. I'm also willing to bet that anyone using the Specter DR on targets at 300 meters will be taking the one-two seconds to flip it back to 4X for the long-range engagement....otherwise, they're a fool, and wasting their ammo.

That all said, you've made up your mind, and reality isn't going to shake your opinion.

Don't like it, don't buy it.

NS

+1

The SpecterDR is a multi-task, combination, complex optic that must be used correctly. This is a professional tool, currently employed in various active theaters. Based on its performance in active duty, the SpecterDR has become a widely subscribed optic adopted by multiple international agencies.

As a dealer I've had the opportunity and priviledge to discuss the optic, at great length, with the distributor. I don't know how to put it any other way, however this is a seriously engineered and rigourously tested piece of gear that is used for serious business.

Furthermore, this thing is made in Canada folks. And in many respects, it leaves the nearest comparable optic lacking.

trout bum: there are correct parameters within which to operate the ELCAN. That being said, there is always a chance there is something wrong with your scope. If so, rest assured that Armament Technology (the distributor) and ELCAN Technologies are religiously committed to their products.

If something is wrong with it, you will be taken care of.

 

[trout bum]

If the price was right - I WOULD buy one. I can do better for my dollar for the price they command, however. But if I found one for a couple hundred and ended up using one, and I threw a few points here or there - no matter. Nobody dies. Just paper.

Shots fired at less than 35 M WILL still be 8 MOA out (with this particular scope) -- you just won't notice it because 8MOA isn't really a whole lot of paper at such a short distance. You might hardly notice a 2.5 inch difference at 30-50 metres under CQB conditions. Does that mean that it's fine? You'll probably still kill the bad guy. Fair enough.

You are correct when you "educated" me on what return to zero means. But if that zero shifts when you change power settings I'm just saying that something in there isn't straight...

It is still two different POI at two different power settings. Hopefully the one I saw was an anomoly. I agree that I would probably only ever use the thing at 4x, and if 1x setting was perhaps only 1.5 MOA off, I wouldn't hardly notice that at anything up to 100m, and especially at CQB ranges. But 8MOA?

My point is that it only really works if you do what the army has always done with equipment -- which is: "always learn to piss with the c#%& that you got..." That was not a happy thing to have lived through. Although I have NO complaints about the mukluks, and I liked the Gerber tools... Canteen cups pretty much worked as designed...

Elcan is allegedly in the high-quality optical sighting unit making business. They make some good glass, I know that. Why are you willing to accept something that shifts 8MOA? For ANY reason? These items are EXPENSIVE. They should do better than that. If your car had totally different braking or steering characteristics with the windows rolled down versus rolled up, it would probably be recalled.

That scope I described may have been an anomoly, as I said, but nonetheless it was manufactured, passed QC and shipped out and is in service with a Police Service in Ontario right now.

Elcan owes our Police and Military better than 8MOA.... Or even 2.

If you're still serving - I'm talking about you. Your life and the lives of your shipmates (assume you're a Navy fellow...) aren't something I take lightly.

Ok,

You've settled on your opinion based on using the optic for something it wasn't designed for. Long range shooting at 1X.

The 1X portion of the optic is optimized for 35 meters or less.

The 4X portion of the optic is optimized for longer ranges.

Yes, zero at 100 with 4X.

Shift to 1X for close-range shots FIRED AT CLOSE RANGE.

Shift back to 4X at 100m and see if you're back on zero. Willing to bet you'll still be at the same POI. THAT is what Return to zero means. (Additionally, removal of the optic from the rail and re-installation will be RTZ, supposing you've properly cleaned the mating surfaces before you install each time.)

I'm willing to also bet that the 1X shots fired at ranges less than 35 meters will NOT be 8 MOA out. I'm also willing to bet that anyone using the Specter DR on targets at 300 meters will be taking the one-two seconds to flip it back to 4X for the long-range engagement....otherwise, they're a fool, and wasting their ammo.

That all said, you've made up your mind, and reality isn't going to shake your opinion.

Don't like it, don't buy it.

NS

 

[Ar180shooter]

Zero shifting...

I am looking at a picture I have and can't figure out how to attach it. IPSC cardboard body target with a slick looking AR15 with fancy new Elcan on the top rail.

Elcan spectre zeroed at 100m on 4x - nice little 10-shot group inside a 2.5 inch black patch.

Same paper, same shooter, same rifle 30 seconds later, same ammo. Rolled it back to lowest 1x power setting and planted a 10-shot group about twice the size of the first group about 8 inches high and off to the 1 o'clock direction . Two distinct groups from the same point of aim.

Gotta say I would have some confidence issues if my life depended on THAT. Seriously - zero at 100m and engage a bad guy at 300m with an 8 minute shift. I hope there's TWO bad guys beside one another and one's taller than the other.

POS.

If the price was right - I WOULD buy one. I can do better for my dollar for the price they command, however. But if I found one for a couple hundred and ended up using one, and I threw a few points here or there - no matter. Nobody dies. Just paper.

Shots fired at less than 35 M WILL still be 8 MOA out (with this particular scope) -- you just won't notice it because 8MOA isn't really a whole lot of paper at such a short distance. You might hardly notice a 2.5 inch difference at 30-50 metres under CQB conditions. Does that mean that it's fine? You'll probably still kill the bad guy. Fair enough.

You are correct when you "educated" me on what return to zero means. But if that zero shifts when you change power settings I'm just saying that something in there isn't straight...

It is still two different POI at two different power settings. Hopefully the one I saw was an anomoly. I agree that I would probably only ever use the thing at 4x, and if 1x setting was perhaps only 1.5 MOA off, I wouldn't hardly notice that at anything up to 100m, and especially at CQB ranges. But 8MOA?

My point is that it only really works if you do what the army has always done with equipment -- which is: "always learn to piss with the c#%& that you got..." That was not a happy thing to have lived through. Although I have NO complaints about the mukluks, and I liked the Gerber tools... Canteen cups pretty much worked as designed...

Elcan is allegedly in the high-quality optical sighting unit making business. They make some good glass, I know that. Why are you willing to accept something that shifts 8MOA? For ANY reason? These items are EXPENSIVE. They should do better than that. If your car had totally different braking or steering characteristics with the windows rolled down versus rolled up, it would probably be recalled.

That scope I described may have been an anomoly, as I said, but nonetheless it was manufactured, passed QC and shipped out and is in service with a Police Service in Ontario right now.

Elcan owes our Police and Military better than 8MOA.... Or even 2.

If you're still serving - I'm talking about you. Your life and the lives of your shipmates (assume you're a Navy fellow...) aren't something I take lightly.

So am I correct in determining that you haven't owned one and it was not you that did the test? If so, how can you determine if it is a POS or not without putting some serious rounds through it? Also, as mentioned, this one might be a lemon. Not common from Elcan, but it can still happen.

I'll also note that I don't own one, but I have talked extensively with several CF members who used their own Specter DR in A-stan. They were very happy with it.

 

[trout bum]

Don't mean to make an argument out of this. All of you have valid points, and there seems to be some experience behind them. I've Used Elcan (original models on C7, from the moment they were introduced and 10 years after that) and I've fired more good matches with them than you might believe. I'm a civvie now and I shoot only competitively, so I can use what I choose to, and what I'm willing to pay for. And having used a variety of optics under a variety of circumstances, I have what I figure is a valid viewpoint as well. Not based on extensive experience with a single setup.

You're correct -- Not my Spectre or me shooting it that did the test in question. But a trusted shooter. And in the spectre's defense - it seems to have held a group size as good as you should get with the gun and ammo in the test. That's as much as you can ask of any optic, right? But I don't accept trying to remember where my rifle hits with different power settings at the same distance. There are cheap hunting scopes that can do it...

On the day in question there was a big pile of Colt Canada products on the range with an array of sighting systems on top of them, and that particular spectre singled itself out. And not in a good way.

I'm the first to admit it - I've fired a lot of rounds - but never on deployment -- but I know enough to understand that Afghanistan is probably more taxing on the gear than CFSAC or NSCC.

Here's the thing -- someone is asking "how good are they?" - that's the title of the thread, after all. Just providing data. Perhaps the final answer is "good enough, in spite of trout-bum's bad review." Perhaps trout bum is a loonie and the answer is to ignore me because it's obviously "awesome." But dude asked, and got answered by me and others. I'm neither disputing the others' experiences or data or diminishing their opinions. Merely sharing mine.

The fellow that asked might be on the verge of making a significant financial investment into a sight. And since he's asking, I gotta figure he's not being forced to use it by his boss... Just figure he deserves as much info as he can get.

Ultimately - if the CF is using these things it doesn't matter whether they're good or not. They're what they got, so they better get used to it. At the very least, they GOTTA be better than the first go-around.

So am I correct in determining that you haven't owned one and it was not you that did the test? If so, how can you determine if it is a POS or not without putting some serious rounds through it? Also, as mentioned, this one might be a lemon. Not common from Elcan, but it can still happen.

I'll also note that I don't own one, but I have talked extensively with several CF members who used their own Specter DR in A-stan. They were very happy with it.

 

[ogradyrw]

The ELCAN SpecterDR in action with US Special Forces!
http://youtu.be/JwDxpST8EU8