Steel shot and cylinder choke

[3macs1]

If it's OK with 3macs1, I too would like to know the answer to the OP's question

We know steel patterns tighter out of IC, but would it in a Cyl. bore?

On one hand there is no restriction at the muzzle, but would how steel reacts to the forcing cone be different enough to deliver a tighter pattern? The other school of thought says that steel will pattern tighter simply due to leads tendency to deform, and the tighter groups may not be a function of choke (or lack thereof) at all.

Anybody have a definitive answer?

PS: I'm far from a newb, and if certain posters want to berate me for being curious I'd ask them to kindly f**k off right now and not sully the thread further. I don't care about your views or opinions, nor do I have to justify my curiousity to you. I want to know, that's all *you* need to know.

Thanks in advance

WW

I love internet tough guys.. Better watch yourself I started back on the weights jan 1st as you can see.It is fine with 3macs1 just sharing what I have witness in reloading and patterning steel shot for probally 17 years now in 10, 12 and 16ga. Have never seen anyone patterning or using a cylinder choke when shooting steel so would be quite suprised if there is an answer out there to you question but we will see.. If you are not a newbie what have you witnessed in your reloading of steel and how it patterns with various chokes. Also why would the forcing cone in the barell make or see a difference by switching chokes 20" plus away??????
Where does a cabinetmaker get time to pattern shotguns

 

[brybenn]

I use a 18.5" fixed cylinder barrel. Don't know the exact specs but it will swallow dimes. Over ditches its great as it hardly hurts the ducks and geese I jump at 20 yards. That's #3 steel. Would I use it out on the big water no but it has its place in close shooting.
For the OP. Try shooting water it gives an idea of the pattern timing as well as density. Shooting paper a pattern can look tight. For example my 410 patterns on paper really well but on water at 30 yards a goose may fly untouched thru the pattern. I don't have the politically correct answer but I use cyl choke on close shots and haven't lost a bird. Haven't busted them up real bad either. On the lake I use a 10ga f/m 34" barrels. Inside 25 yards I dare not pull the back trigger cuz ill waste the duck. Have fun blasting them ducks

 

[3macs1]

I will have to my caliper from school to get a measurement. My beretta is an optima plus choke and should be oversized bore instead of under, but that would require measurements to confirm.

I agree a head shot on a goose is great, but one time I had one with it's beak dangling and the cat snatched it off when I wasn't looking, now the wife is horrified.

The only time I use that cyl choke is when we hunt ponds and rivers and most shots are 15 yards or so due to limited visibility from trees and brushes. The type of place where birds just drop right in with no room to swing. You can bet when march rolls around, I'll be orchestrating aerial backflips on those geese with the trusty mod choke that I have patterned several loads in.

No one likes to cripple birds, but I've seen people popping off that 3rd shot on a going away bird that lightly hit and have it fly and go down half a block away as well. Picking high percentage shots would limit unrecovered birds.

All the readings I've done has more or less described what hard shots would do through a constriction, I was wondering how it would compare to soft shots when it's fired through a straight tube with no restriction at the end.

One thing that I have found with cyl choke is that it patterns very evenly with small leads from the 2 guns I patterned with it.

When it warms a bit in the summer I guess I'll go take a few shots and see what the real story on paper is.

Ok Now I see what is going on. We are talking apples and oranges here.
I do all of my patterning at 40 yards with a 30" circle with 3-5 hits on a bird being acceptable. That to my knowledge is the norm for many years now and accepted by most shotgunners for patterning.
At 15 yards I could almost hit them with the barrel on my 10ga choke or no choke. Choke is playing almost no role other than a cylinder is spreading a bit quicker and not gutting the birds in the air like a full or mod would providing you are on the bird. Look at these numbers for 20 yards at 15 yards I would say every choke is delivering 100% of it's payload in 30" just spread slightly different but enough that you see it in bird damage.
Make sense?? and yes an otima is overbored at .733 but I don't know what it's tubes are at. I set up my decoys for 35 to 40 yard shots since that is what I pattern for and closer with the 10ga just destroys the duck if I am on them. I use briley extended improved modified which produce real nice patterns in my browning guns. 15yards I cannot do with my set up unless I want to make hamburger. I set my 12ga's up the same as the 10 also.

Chart 1
Percentage Of Shot Inside 30″ Circle

CHOKE 20 Yds 30 Yds 40 yds

Cylinder 85% 60% 40%
Skeet 96% 72% 50%
Improved Cyl 100% 77% 55%
Modified 100% 83% 60%
Improved Mod 100% 91% 65%
Full 100% 100% 70%


This is what I was looking for doesn't have 15 but you get the idea with a 9" spread at 10 yards every pellet is ripping though the bird if you are on him . With cylinder tube 100% are still within the accepted 30" circle but with a 20" pattern some are missing the bird.

Approximate Effective Pattern Diameters (In Inches)

10 Yds 20 Yds 30 Yds 40 yds

Spreader 23″ 37″ 51″ 66″
Cylinder Bore (no choke) 20″ 32″ 44″ 57″
Improved Cylinder 15″ 26″ 38″ 51″
Modified 12″ 20″ 32″ 46″
Full 9″ 16″ 26″ 40″

 

[Lodi]

We know steel patterns tighter out of IC, but would it in a Cyl. bore?

...but would how steel reacts to the forcing cone be different enough to deliver a tighter pattern? The other school of thought says that steel will pattern tighter simply due to leads tendency to deform, and the tighter groups may not be a function of choke (or lack thereof) at all.

The pattern with steel should be tighter than the pattern with lead. Upon firing, the lead will deform whereas the steel will not.

You are correct WW. Both lead and steel start out as equals, nice round spheres, but by the time the pellets reach the open air the lead has deformed several times whereas the steel is still perfect.

Initial acceleration causes the pellets at the rear to start moving before the pellets at the front, this causes compression of the shot charge and flat spots on the lead pellets, but not the steel pellets. When the shot charge reaches the forcing cone the pellets at the front slow down, because of the constriction, while the rearmost pellets are still accelerating because of expanding gases. This leads to more compression and the flat spots become wider. A choke causes this scenario to repeat itself.

Because lead deforms easily ammo makers started copper-plating shot. Copper is harder than lead and deformation of pellets was reduced significantly providing tighter, denser patterns. Steel is harder than copper which again provides tighter, denser patterns than the copper-plated loads.

Early steel shot ammo used wads designed for lead, the soft flimsy ones, and incidents of shotgun barrel "ringing" started to pop up. This was caused by the compression of the steel pellets when they reached the choke. Steel shot does not deform and the movement was directed at the thin walls of the barrel. Today, wads for steel shot are quite thick and rigid. Barrel walls are thicker at the choke, some barrels are now flared prior to choking to keep that area thicker.

 

[Wrong Way]

I love internet tough guys.. Better watch yourself I started back on the weights jan 1st as you can see.It is fine with 3macs1 just sharing what I have witness in reloading and patterning steel shot for probally 17 years now in 10, 12 and 16ga. Have never seen anyone patterning or using a cylinder choke when shooting steel so would be quite suprised if there is an answer out there to you question but we will see.. If you are not a newbie what have you witnessed in your reloading of steel and how it patterns with various chokes. Also why would the forcing cone in the barell make or see a difference by switching chokes 20" plus away??????
Where does a cabinetmaker get time to pattern shotguns

Another non-answer answer to a very simple question.....wow.

(and in answer to your question: When that cabinet maker owns the shop, he can go outside and shoot whenever he likes)

You are correct WW. Both lead and steel start out as equals, nice round spheres, but by the time the pellets reach the open air the lead has deformed several times whereas the steel is still perfect.

Initial acceleration causes the pellets at the rear to start moving before the pellets at the front, this causes compression of the shot charge and flat spots on the lead pellets, but not the steel pellets. When the shot charge reaches the forcing cone the pellets at the front slow down, because of the constriction, while the rearmost pellets are still accelerating because of expanding gases. This leads to more compression and the flat spots become wider. A choke causes this scenario to repeat itself.

Because lead deforms easily ammo makers started copper-plating shot. Copper is harder than lead and deformation of pellets was reduced significantly providing tighter, denser patterns. Steel is harder than copper which again provides tighter, denser patterns than the copper-plated loads.

Early steel shot ammo used wads designed for lead, the soft flimsy ones, and incidents of shotgun barrel "ringing" started to pop up. This was caused by the compression of the steel pellets when they reached the choke. Steel shot does not deform and the movement was directed at the thin walls of the barrel. Today, wads for steel shot are quite thick and rigid. Barrel walls are thicker at the choke, some barrels are now flared prior to choking to keep that area thicker.

Outstanding answer to the question that was *actually* asked. Thanks

 

[3macs1]

Another non-answer answer to a very simple question.....wow.

(and in answer to your question: When that cabinet maker owns the shop, he can go outside and shoot whenever he likes)




Outstanding answer to the question that was *actually* asked. Thanks

Glad to are happy with it and no it is really not a simple question. I am not going to pick Lodi's response apart since I agree with him 100% of the lead portion unfortunately with respect to steel it is theory and I will leave it at that. It is clear you both don't reload steel or very little nor have done any amount of patterning with it.
Lots of write ups out there on what theory says should happen a good one attached and If correct I should see no serious flyers as an example but we see almost as many today with steel as we did with lead to the point where I had the forcing cone reworked on my go to gold 10ga that shoots 100% steel, done for the same reason I did my old Trap 870 wingmaster back in the 70's shooting lead. Wonder why cabnit maker ?? no benifit in working a forcing cone with steel everyone knows that or do they.?? In theory no difference with steel should be seen
You have been picking on me since I disagreed with you on how to finish a laminated stock but sorry the other member does real nice work and does it for a living so his method although different from your is OK also.
Have a good one and I hope the op gets a real life answer to his question.Regardless I am done with you on this topic.
http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.steelvslead.html

Best thing anyone can do when shooting steel is shoot and pattern as many types and configurations as you can and when you get a combination that works in your gun stick with it. I have two 12ga browning golds 3 1/2" made maybe 5 years apart, identical from a manufacturers perspective yet both use totally different reloads to get the same end result at 40 yards. I don't see shotgun much different than working the best load for your rifle. Other than few take the time to do it with shotguns. In the end to each their own

 

[madtrapper143]

I think a CYL bored barrel will make a mediocre shot a good shot under 35 yards. Alot of shooters find they shoot better ( have better kill results) with an open choke. They do because of the wide pattern. If you shoot ducks at 35 or less ALL the time a CYL boring is great. If you want to reach out to 45 or 50 yards the old CYL is out of its class. Steel shot is a wild card and I have spent enough time on paper to learn that nothing is written in stone when it comes to chokes and steel. Read some Don ZUTZ......

Darryl