Choosing a build - choosing between Jaeger and NW trade gun

[H Wally]

Whelp, looking for a summer downtime project and have decided I might like to make a flinter.
I realise I'm choosing between apples and oranges here, but I really like both the NW trade guns for their light weight and simplicity, and the Jaeger for it's amazing appearance.

- What's your opinion? Experiences with either kit from Pecatonica or TOTW?

- I'm looking at TOTW and Pecatonica river as well, and it seems Pecatonica is usually $100-$200 cheaper for similar products, any reason why?


NW Trade Gun:
Pecatonica:
http://www.longrifles-pr.com/northwesttradegun.shtml
TOTW:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/GunKit.aspx?catID=13&subID=77&styleID=299&partNum=NORTH-WEST-TRADE-GUN-PARTS-LIST&partList=True

Jaeger:
Pecatonica:
http://www.longrifles-pr.com/jaeger.shtml
TOTW:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/GunKitDetail.aspx?catID=13&subID=77&styleID=301&PartNum=JAEGER-RIFLE-FLINT-PARTS-LIST&KitId=KIT-JD

 

[Boolitcaster]

That would be a hard choice.

Being a small game hunter, I would get the NW Trade gun but in smooth bore. I already have a rifled ML and the trade gun would give me the option of knocking over some grouse and bunnies while scouting just before deer season opens. If the rifle is comfortable, who knows? Maybe a patched round ball for deer season.

 

[tiriaq]

FWIW, TOW kits use a Pecatonica stock.
Also consider North Star West for a trade gun kit.

These guns really are apples and oranges. A light smoothbore vs a medium bore rifle. The trade gun is going to be an easier kit to put together than a jaeger.

I've never built a jaeger, but have a fair bit of experience with scratch built trade guns. One I would like to build is the late percussion gun with the Enfield styled lock. Only made a couple of percussion trade guns in the past, converting a flint lockplate for one. Have most of the parts for a late cap gun. Looking for a scrap Enfield barrel to salvage the breech with bolster.

 

[H Wally]

That would be a hard choice.

Being a small game hunter, I would get the NW Trade gun but in smooth bore. I already have a rifled ML and the trade gun would give me the option of knocking over some grouse and bunnies while scouting just before deer season opens. If the rifle is comfortable, who knows? Maybe a patched round ball for deer season.

I'm not incredibly into small game - am I out of line thinking I could put a round ball or possibly undersized light slug into the NW Trade gun? I feel like it's light weight would make for a nice trail walk gun, or possibly a fun no-pressure close range deer rifle.

I also should note I've been looking at the 20 gauge smooth barrel, but TOTW offers 54 and 58 cal rifled barrels.... but that'll bring the weight up again. I don't really know how the NW trade rifle was meant to be loaded, but I can't imagine why it wouldn't work with a round ball or slug. I'm thinking specifically of putting heavy patching on an enfield ball or minie ball (approx .577), a 20 gauge shotgun mold (foster style), or me just not being a cheap@ss and buying the right size .60 round ball mold .

FWIW, TOW kits use a Pecatonica stock.
Also consider North Star West for a trade gun kit.

These guns really are apples and oranges. A light smoothbore vs a medium bore rifle. The trade gun is going to be an easier kit to put together than a jaeger.

I've never built a jaeger, but have a fair bit of experience with scratch built trade guns. One I would like to build is the late percussion gun with the Enfield styled lock. Only made a couple of percussion trade guns in the past, converting a flint lockplate for one. Have most of the parts for a late cap gun. Looking for a scrap Enfield barrel to salvage the breech with bolster.

I checked North Star West but they seemed far more expensive. Am I missing something?

 

[chasseur]

Noth Star makes a quality kit and worth the money far better than those from track.If I
were building a NW gun more for large game with round ball than shot I would go for the
16 guage barrel,far better all round bore for round ball than shot.

 

[mooncoon]

If you are going for a trade gun, one thing I would look at with kits is the shape of the barrel around the wedding band. Original guns had a tapered octagon to a wedding band and then tapered round to a muzzle at a guess around .030". Some (ugly to me) features that I have seen in some repros is a sharp transition from wedding band (in any) to round and then straight round to the muzzle which was about .050" or so but noticeably a thick muzzle.

You would not be able to shoot an ordinary slug from a smooth bore unless you built up a mold for a rifled slug similar to used in a shotgun. The guns are accurate with patched round ball but there is quite a learning curve to shoot them accurately.

I think a nice looking jaeger around .54 caliber (originals were often up around .60 to .64) would be comparatively light, accurate, and a much shorter learning curve to shoot accurately

cheers mooncoon

 

[H Wally]

Noth Star makes a quality kit and worth the money far better than those from track.If I
were building a NW gun more for large game with round ball than shot I would go for the
16 guage barrel,far better all round bore for round ball than shot.

Hmm - haven't seen 16 gauge barrels from North Star, Pecatonica or TOTW - where'd you see them? Frankly I don't think 20 gauge is a huge problem for me, but if I can find it it's worth checking.

If you are going for a trade gun, one thing I would look at with kits is the shape of the barrel around the wedding band. Original guns had a tapered octagon to a wedding band and then tapered round to a muzzle at a guess around .030". Some (ugly to me) features that I have seen in some repros is a sharp transition from wedding band (in any) to round and then straight round to the muzzle which was about .050" or so but noticeably a thick muzzle.

You would not be able to shoot an ordinary slug from a smooth bore unless you built up a mold for a rifled slug similar to used in a shotgun. The guns are accurate with patched round ball but there is quite a learning curve to shoot them accurately.

I think a nice looking jaeger around .54 caliber (originals were often up around .60 to .64) would be comparatively light, accurate, and a much shorter learning curve to shoot accurately

cheers mooncoon

I don't mind a learning curve, that's pretty much why they're fun to shoot (and my first (air) gun had a bent front and rear sight and bent barrel... it can't be harder to shoot than that). What would be the issue with using a foster style hollow base mold, or a pellet style slug in the gun? I recognize it isn't what they were meant for, but seeing as shotguns are usually smoothbore I'd guess it would shoot ok at least (although I guess the real question is whether or not it would shoot better than round ball).

You're probably right on the Jaeger. My main thing is that I've only ever handled two and both felt quite heavy compared to the trade guns. I recognize that's a factor of having rifled barrels, but it is nonetheless an added weight - I guess I'm not sure how much these kits would end up weighing.

 

[Vincent1213]

Have you taken a look at the sticky by Claven2 in the BP forum at Mil Surp Collectors? He built a TOTW kit rifle and the thread has lots of pics and tips.

 

[H Wally]

Have you taken a look at the sticky by Claven2 in the BP forum at Mil Surp Collectors? He built a TOTW kit rifle and the thread has lots of pics and tips.

As a matter of fact I have not! Headed there now, thanks for the tip! (This is exactly why I ask questions on CGN - there's always something to learn!)

 

[david doyle]

Get a stock blank 100 bucks

Get a colerain, gunworks, or NSW breeched barrel 200 bucks

Get a full size pattern for the gun you want from TOTW 7 bucks, buy 20 bucks worth of stock and metal work books. Order a butt plate. and underlugs. 30 bucks

Spend some quality time with your blank, a straight edge, pencil and your pattern.

Spend some time sharpening- build a vise to hold your blank/stock- spend some more time sharpening- go to the second hand stores and buy good quality chisels, files, rasps etc- spend some more time sharpening

Take out the breech plug, ponder over it.

Inlet the barrel

cut ram rod groove. drill ram rod hole. Yep the drilling is gonna suck but even if you screw it up you can just cut a groove from inside and epoxy a piece of wood over it.(saved from your blank)

Cut dovetails and attach/solder underlugs

You are into the build for 350 and you have a better piece of stock wood, have not had to suffer problems inherent in cheaper kits and have really built something.

Now you can buy a drill jig, a lock, trigger, bolts, taps, drills, side plate (or build it and save 15 bucks) thimbles ( or build them and save 30 bucks), nose cap (or build it and save 20 bucks), trigger guard (or build it and save 30 bucks).

Buy a lock that does not come from L&R and buy it from the guy who assembled it and buy it after he has looked it over the second time.

Inlet the lock and carry on as you would with a kit.

Now that you are done:

Go to the library and get a copy of FOXFIRE 5 read the Hershel build section and kick yourself in the ass real hard for not doing it first thing. Solves ALL the mysteries, problems and makes the process fun.

You can buy a copy for 5-15 dollars at a hundred used book stores all over North AMerica 98.9% of all Internet forum questions could have been answered if the builder had read foxfire. I think saltsprings books might have a copy.

 

[Steppenwolf]

This is a good gunbuilding tutorial by Mike Brooks.

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/tutorials/brooks/Brooks1.html

 

[wr.sainsbury]

NW Trade musket

Greetings-I have an original f/l made by Barnett that I am slowly putting together. The cal measures at .62 or about 18 guage. This type of piece was used both for round ball or shot depending on circumstance and copies are commonly used at rendezvous' for smoothbore competition. No rear sight hence Mooncoon's comment on accuracy. Barrel length on mine is 39 3/4"

 

[david doyle]

Some (ugly to me) features that I have seen in some repros is a sharp transition from wedding band (in any) to round and then straight round to the muzzle which was about .050" or so but noticeably a thick muzzle.

I agree on this ugly factor, it is a product of manufacturers racing to the bottom price wise. Why a guy would want to save the cut of a taper on a piece which is going to have hundreds of hours invested in it is beyond me. The Kits are almost all like this as it saves on the barrel machining and on the inletting.

I lucked into an older North Star West trade gun barrel which has the proper transitions/tapers. Thing of beauty. I looked into it a bit and it seems that the North Star West Barrels are still made like this though but confirm before you buy. Gun Works also makes a properly tapered trade gun barrel.

Wally before you decide on the investment spend a bunch of time looking at historic pictures and modern build pictures, what mooncoon is saying about 'ugly' should not be taken lightly. Life is too short for ugly guns and once you look at a couple thousand flinters you will start to develop a sense for what pleases you aesthetically.

If you decide on a 'rifle kit' contact clark industires IIRC he has a fully inletted, underlugs installed, butt plate installed, sights soldered 'kit' for 800 delivered. You get a made in Canada 250 dollar lock for the 800, a made in Canada stock and a green mountain barrel. No DOM tubing or sketchy USA resellers. You simply cannot do better in the USA. Plus it should holds it's value over the next 200 years as it is not so much a kit gun of the cheapest parts available but an in the white gun by a Canadian Craftsman. If you decide on a smooth bore he will have a fowler coming to market soon ish but it will be another few hundred bucks. Still a better deal then most 'kit' guns. IIRC Plans are for 16 gauge to cover ducks, turkey and the biggest big game.

 

[mooncoon]

There are 3 originals; one percussion and two flint. The shorter darker flint has a home made lock in it.

versus an original flint jaeger style but only 40 cal and home made repro lock in it. The original hunting jaegers and some light british sporting rifles were up around 63 or 64 caliber but at least some of the jaeger style german guns were more or less identical to the small caliber one that I have

I think that earlier you mentioned making a air rifle pellet shaped slug for the trade gun. I question how well it would work and remember that air rifles are usually rifled. I think you would get better accuracy out of a patched round ball in a trade gun and fewer frustrations. Also think trying unusual shaped slugs and projectiles in general is only practical if you have or have access to a metal lathe and can modify inexpensive second hand molds to your whim of the day

in previewing, I just noticed and have to admit that I have sinned and used an agate flint in the jaeger for some now obscure reason. I shall say 5 hail Mary's :>)

cheers mooncoon

 

[david doyle]

Mooncoon thanks a lot for posting those pictures. Would you have an easily posted picture of the whole gun for the 'shorter' 'darker' flintlock. I am curious about the forestock/lack of a discernible forearm. I have been pondering a similar arrangement but was nervous about it cause I had yet to see one. That might be the example I need to get rid of the stumpy cut down look I am working with now. Does it have any sort of entry pipe?

 

[david doyle]

BTW wally there is a finished 12 bore NW trade gun over on Traditional muzzle loader forums that looks as good as any kit gun for 500 and 250 worth of trade goods.

yep cheaper then a kit......

 

[mooncoon]

All three are full stock and no entry pipe where the ramrod becomes fully surrounded by the forestock. I traded for the short one which had no lock when found in Quebec. The lockplate for that gun was made to match the recess that was present. The shiny flinter was apparently bought in the 1940s and was fired once in the 80s when the previous owner inherited it and has not been fired since. The pattern on the butt in front of the butt plate (of the short dark one) was done in recent years by some unknown to me. I put linseed oil on the marks to make them less visible. I reamed the barrel on that one to get rid of pitting and irregularities so that I could shoot it. The barrel maker's name puts that one around 1800 - 1820

I will try to take some better photos of the muzzle end of the forestock. in the next day or two

 

[david doyle]

Mooncoon that shows me exactly what I wanted to see. I will be replicating that simple straight fore-stock on my short smooth bore build but with a bit more of a french butt to compensate for my noodle long neck and acadian heritage.
Thanks for taking the time to post the pics and thanks for maintaining our heritage in shooting shape!

 

[H Wally]

Greetings-I have an original f/l made by Barnett that I am slowly putting together. The cal measures at .62 or about 18 guage. This type of piece was used both for round ball or shot depending on circumstance and copies are commonly used at rendezvous' for smoothbore competition. No rear sight hence Mooncoon's comment on accuracy. Barrel length on mine is 39 3/4"

I agree on this ugly factor, it is a product of manufacturers racing to the bottom price wise. Why a guy would want to save the cut of a taper on a piece which is going to have hundreds of hours invested in it is beyond me. The Kits are almost all like this as it saves on the barrel machining and on the inletting.

I lucked into an older North Star West trade gun barrel which has the proper transitions/tapers. Thing of beauty. I looked into it a bit and it seems that the North Star West Barrels are still made like this though but confirm before you buy. Gun Works also makes a properly tapered trade gun barrel.

Wally before you decide on the investment spend a bunch of time looking at historic pictures and modern build pictures, what mooncoon is saying about 'ugly' should not be taken lightly. Life is too short for ugly guns and once you look at a couple thousand flinters you will start to develop a sense for what pleases you aesthetically.

If you decide on a 'rifle kit' contact clark industires IIRC he has a fully inletted, underlugs installed, butt plate installed, sights soldered 'kit' for 800 delivered. You get a made in Canada 250 dollar lock for the 800, a made in Canada stock and a green mountain barrel. No DOM tubing or sketchy USA resellers. You simply cannot do better in the USA. Plus it should holds it's value over the next 200 years as it is not so much a kit gun of the cheapest parts available but an in the white gun by a Canadian Craftsman. If you decide on a smooth bore he will have a fowler coming to market soon ish but it will be another few hundred bucks. Still a better deal then most 'kit' guns. IIRC Plans are for 16 gauge to cover ducks, turkey and the biggest big game.

Geez - I was pretty set on my choice of guns until you mentioned Clark Industries. I've heard limited, but all good things about them (him?). It sounds like the guns arrive 50% or more done already from Clark.... realistically that's probably what I should be starting with

There are 3 originals; one percussion and two flint. The shorter darker flint has a home made lock in it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/mooncoon/Tradeguns3b.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/mooncoon/ParkerFieldColockb.jpg

versus an original flint jaeger style but only 40 cal and home made repro lock in it. The original hunting jaegers and some light british sporting rifles were up around 63 or 64 caliber but at least some of the jaeger style german guns were more or less identical to the small caliber one that I have

Do you think the 64 cal jaegers would be significantly heavier or lighter than your 40 cal? I don't mind saying I prefer lighter guns when I have a choice - just find them easier to keep on target when standing(I know, have to hand in my man card now).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/mooncoon/Jaegerprofileb.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/mooncoon/Newlockoutside2b.jpg

I think that earlier you mentioned making a air rifle pellet shaped slug for the trade gun. I question how well it would work and remember that air rifles are usually rifled. I think you would get better accuracy out of a patched round ball in a trade gun and fewer frustrations. Also think trying unusual shaped slugs and projectiles in general is only practical if you have or have access to a metal lathe and can modify inexpensive second hand molds to your whim of the day

Main reason I brought up the foster and pellet style slugs were because lyman 20 gauge slug molds for a good price, and I hadn't come across any similar caliber round ball molds at the time. Kindof a square peg+ hammer in round hole solution

in previewing, I just noticed and have to admit that I have sinned and used an agate flint in the jaeger for some now obscure reason. I shall say 5 hail Mary's :>)

cheers mooncoon

BTW wally there is a finished 12 bore NW trade gun over on Traditional muzzle loader forums that looks as good as any kit gun for 500 and 250 worth of trade goods.

yep cheaper then a kit......

Thanks! I'm taking a look now.

 

[david doyle]

I've heard limited, but all good things about them (him?). It sounds like the guns arrive 50% or more done already from Clark

Just going by his website seems more like 90% done. When you look at the web site you are looking for the Long Rifle. If you decide on a fowler PLEASE call him and let him know you will purchase one. I am patiently waiting for enough interest for him to set up the duplicator to do fowlers.