USMC marksmanship with the AR -- 1999
- Thread starter carbonrod
- Start date
Fantastic fundamental learning... Thanks for posting this video. 
Here you go all you iron sight newbies! It's all here! Manuals are great, but this video saves a pile of typing and reading! Faster learning curve! HooAh!!
Barney
Here you go all you iron sight newbies! It's all here! Manuals are great, but this video saves a pile of typing and reading! Faster learning curve! HooAh!!
Barney
I had a buddy (former Marine) come up for NYE. We got on the discussion of training, and this is really all they focused on in their training >> the fundamentals (at least, when he was in). No movers, no snap shooting, just this very sterile target style shooting in the various shooting positions. Their national SR competition is like that too. Didn't sound nearly as much fun as our version...
I have several buddies in USMC, and their "USMC Shooting Team" does indeed focus on the basics of "their" service rifle for their Corps matches and the Nationals at Perry. Round bullseyes, jackets, slings, single loading long 80 grain cartridges that won't fit in the mag, etc. etc.
When put into the "combat" matches of AFSAM, however (similar to CFSAC at the time, but a bit more hectic in terms of the pace and rounds fired...)-- they did remarkably well, in 1996 at least. As a matter of fact they were the only team that was even close enough to Canada that year to be a contender. I would suggest that the basics are like walking. And if you are good at them, running is simply "walking quickly." That year the US Army teams and other foreign teams seemed to be focusing on a training principle called "running before you can walk" and were met with failure all around. I'm pretty sure that our "Ranger" representative, with his Lee Enfield, shot a higher score than the average German soldier that year. Scary.
USMC taught me this saying: "Get GOOD, because good is SMOOTH. And smooth is FAST"
You can't do it the other way around.
Some will say that modern armies can't dedicate the amount of time required to hammer the basics like this. Other pressing tasks competing for time and resources. 100 percent true. Welcome to the "grey area." If you are a competitive shooter only - perhaps hammering at the basics is a good strategy.
Iron sights aren't that bad. They don't shift zeros as much as a bad optic. But on the other hand - I gotta admit that my worst days with Elcan were still better than "most" days with the old iron sights.
When put into the "combat" matches of AFSAM, however (similar to CFSAC at the time, but a bit more hectic in terms of the pace and rounds fired...)-- they did remarkably well, in 1996 at least. As a matter of fact they were the only team that was even close enough to Canada that year to be a contender. I would suggest that the basics are like walking. And if you are good at them, running is simply "walking quickly." That year the US Army teams and other foreign teams seemed to be focusing on a training principle called "running before you can walk" and were met with failure all around. I'm pretty sure that our "Ranger" representative, with his Lee Enfield, shot a higher score than the average German soldier that year. Scary.
USMC taught me this saying: "Get GOOD, because good is SMOOTH. And smooth is FAST"
You can't do it the other way around.
Some will say that modern armies can't dedicate the amount of time required to hammer the basics like this. Other pressing tasks competing for time and resources. 100 percent true. Welcome to the "grey area." If you are a competitive shooter only - perhaps hammering at the basics is a good strategy.
Iron sights aren't that bad. They don't shift zeros as much as a bad optic. But on the other hand - I gotta admit that my worst days with Elcan were still better than "most" days with the old iron sights.
For sure. The dynamic and hasty positions in our competition is very field applicable. I never had any formal training, but first hunt after a season of 1-12 competition I sure found that I locked up quicker.
Any chance there any good Canadian instructionals around somewhere?
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300Spartans
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Canada of course
Thanks for posting.
Interesting stuff. Funny that the US Army does so much poorer than the Marines. I've always thought that the Army's marksmanship manual was superior to the equivalent Marine Corps offering. You'd think the US Army's cream of the crop would be at least as good as the Marines. Guess that just goes to show where actual practice is more important than theory.
In service rifle circles I hear more about the AMU than the marines. In fact I probably hear more about the national guard than either the AMU or the Marines put together. The second time I was at Afsam the National guard were the only American unit that were even close to Canada in the Presidents trophy standings.
AFSAM is concurrent with Winston Wilson "Combat" Matches, which is a big deal for the National Guard. National Gurad Marksmanship Training Unit is based in Camp Robinson, so it is no wonder the best and brightest of thier ranks are at AFSAM. USAMU really focuses on thier "Nationals" at Perry - and they enter their individuals in all events. Service rifle, match rifle, pistol, IPSC, IDPA -- everything. And they run the unit like a NASCAR Team. they have jerseys and the works. Sort of elitist prima-donnas, they leave the AFSAM and Combat matches to "normal" troops.
When I was at AFSAM I had similar experience almost 20 years ago. USMC Shooting Team was there trialing ELCAN scopes for combat matches. (I've never seen a Marine with an Elcan since that month -musta' not liked them) . They were our only competition, and cleanly second place team --very good basic skills from "bullseye" matches. National Guard were easily third, followed by Brits and Australians. No USAMU present.
I wonder if USMC Team even bothers with AFSAM anymore. My buddy on their team back then is retired now and we share fishing pics back and forth - Sometimes he's wearing the AFSAM shirt form the year I met him there, but never any "newer" AFSAM shirts. Makes me think they don't bother. Maybe they were just playing "combat" with their trial Elcans that year, and that they also focus on Perry. (I met him once in Ottawa, and their team was up for the Canadian Target Rifle Championsips, but not CFSAC -- He was shooting a Tubb2000 that was "issued" by the team. so THAT's a clue where they put their emphasis...
I would love to see some of our instructionals. Any chance of a civy clinic or video even?
