F TR caliber choice

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Hey guys, Ive been trying to have a read into/about f class shooting. So far f/tr seems to be of interst to me. Could any of you that shoot this class take some time to explain why you picked 223 or 308. Also I'd like to know where I could find a schedule of events to check out on Vancouver island.
Thanks
 
I have been shooting f/tr for 4 years now using .308, the reason for picking this caliber at the time was bullet availability, much better selection at the time.
Now however, I am building a .223 as barrel twist, bullet selection and load developement have improved greatly over the past two years.
For info on where to shoot try talking to Mystic Precision, his banner is in the header for this site. He can also give you good insite as to what is working in F/TR.
John
 
I bought a 223 for ftr due primarily to mystics cheer leading. It was a mistake. 223 is a difficult round to get to work at extended range. If you choose a 308 you will be far ahead. Loads are worked out you just need to learn to shoot ftr.

Look up the 223 90 grain thread. It has been going on for about 4 years and they are still doing load development. This is not a newbies ftr round. It is for someone that is looking for an additional challenge.
 
Thanks for the honest input so far guys I've been reading through the 90 grain thread a bit at a time but I'm still open to opinions.
284
 
I am one that has been playing with the 223 - 90 grain combo for years with Mystic and I concur with JBD's accessment. This is a very fussy round that requires huge attention to detail. It is very easy to get to shoot reasonable groups but very difficult to get consistent match accuracy from. I have experience shooting this round where the batch of powder makes the difference from match winner to also ran. Just the way you hold the rifle makes huge differences. The 308 is a far better beginners rifle IMHO. Steve
 
I was sitting in the DCRA fullbore canadian national champion's gun room as he was reloading ammo for our provincial championship. He was using a dillon to charge his cases:eek:. He told me to 600 Meters he does not bother to individually weigh the charges for his 7.62x51 it does not make enough of a difference to affect his score to that range.
 
It's true, he does load his ammo that way, but he's shooting TR, with iron sites. I can pretty much guarentee you won't find many F/TR shooters loading winning ammo that way, .308 or .223.

While I'm tempted to try a .223 with the 90's, I'm reluctant to sign myself up to the level of fussiness required to load really good .223 ammo, compared to how hard I need to work to turn out equally good .308 ammo. To put it into perspective, I don't weigh anything except powder- not cases, or bullets. Try that with a .223, and let me know how your elevation holds at 900m...




JBD said:
I was sitting in the DCRA fullbore canadian national champion's gun room as he was reloading ammo for our provincial championship. He was using a dillon to charge his cases:eek:. He told me to 600 Meters he does not bother to individually weigh the charges for his 7.62x51 it does not make enough of a difference to affect his score to that range.
Click to expand...
 
I echo a lot of other opinions here. If you're starting out, the 308W is the better choice at long range. The 223R has been doing great at shorter ranges, such as Volks in BC, but using 77 SMK or 82 Bergers IIRC.
 
mpwolf said:
It's true, he does load his ammo that way, but he's shooting TR, with iron sites. I can pretty much guarentee you won't find many F/TR shooters loading winning ammo that way, .308 or .223.

While I'm tempted to try a .223 with the 90's, I'm reluctant to sign myself up to the level of fussiness required to load really good .223 ammo, compared to how hard I need to work to turn out equally good .308 ammo. To put it into perspective, I don't weigh anything except powder- not cases, or bullets. Try that with a .223, and let me know how your elevation holds at 900m...
Click to expand...

I'm the same way, I throw everything out to 600with the 308.
Cat
 
Thanks guys, 308 seems to be the way to go here. A guy could probably use the same rifle for f class tr and the odd tactical match too then with a few compromises here and there.
 
Hey guys, Ive been trying to have a read into/about f class shooting. So far f/tr seems to be of interst to me. Could any of you that shoot this class take some time to explain why you picked 223 or 308.
Click to expand...


Last spring, I had a rifle built on a Barnard action. At the time, I couldn't decide which caliber to get. I wanted a 223 but I was afraid I might not be able to get it to shoot consistently based on my research. I decided to build a switch barrel rifle 223 / 308.

My intention was to shoot the 223 with the 90 VLD's. I would have prefered the 223 due to the reduced cost, reduced recoil and high BC 90Gr bullets. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find a good load at long range with the 90 VLD's in my new rifle. I found a few great loads at 200 but it fell appart at 600m which is only mid-range. I was glad I built a swicth barrel rifle as I ended up shooting 308 last season. I intend to give the 223 another try this spring but my feeling is that I will be shooting the 308 again this year.

Reloading for the 223 & 90's require much more attention and time than loading for the 308. It takes me at least 50% more time to reload for my 223 than my 308. I check every powder charge on my balance beam then reconfirm it on my acculab electronic scale when relioading for my 223. Slight variations in powder charge seem to make a big difference at the longer ranges with the 223. I also sort my bullets & brass. I don't need to do this for my 308.
 
SteveB said:
This is a very fussy round that requires huge attention to detail. It is very easy to get to shoot reasonable groups but very difficult to get consistent match accuracy from.
Click to expand...

This really shouldn't be a surprise. It has a lot to do with the size of the cartridge and of the bullets. Everything is much smaller than a .308 Win. Therefore, any error is going to have a greater effect on it. A thou of deviation or difference in neck tension will have a greater effect. A difference of +/-0.1 gr. in powders charge will have nearly twice the effect on the smaller cartridge.

+/- 0.1 gr. on a 24 gr. load is a +/- 0.4% error
whereas on a 44 gr. load it is only +/- 0.2%

Powders with smaller kernels like the new AR Comp will help, but you still need to be twice as precise as the 308 in many areas in order for the error to maintain the same ratio to whatever measurement it relates to.
 
I have had plenty of success with the .223 and 80 gr bullets out to 600 m and bases on my limited experience on the longer ranges it certainly gets more challenging. You need to be good at reading wind to be successful. Some have had great success with the 90 gr bullets and others not so good. In my opinion, the 90 gr bullet is out on the ragged edge for what that small case was originally intended. I am now building a .308 for longer ranges.
 
I was in the same position a year ago, and chose to go with .308 because I figured it would be easier to reload for, and I could use the same components for my hunting rifle.

While it has yet to be proven, the new 185 and 200gr hybrid bullet designs should give the .308 a significant advantage over the 90gr .223 in BC, so the only real advantages are lower cost to reload and less recoil.
 
Yes, development has been rapid and has had its pitfalls.

The 308 has had over 60yrs of development and it is STILL being developed. Wait till all the new heavies and hybrids get launched this spring.

I am kind of stuck with the 223 as my shoulder will not put up with the 308. As they say, burn the boat, learn to conquer the new island.

So far, testing has proven some very interesting and positive results.

Where I see most of the problems occur is trying to get as much speed from the heavies as the case will handle. Here the 223 has an edge. It can handle a surprising amount of pressure and because of the smaller head size, masks that very nicely.

Not suggesting one should load to dangerous levels. BUT speed is possible at a dispproportionate level vs the 308.

SO on paper, the ballistics are similar if not favor the 223.

But some combos/bullets do not like the added pressure so each bullet will have its limits.

Another problematic area is the methods shooters have for charging their cases. The 223 will require twice as precise method of weighing as the 308. Where 0.1 or even 0.2gr of powder variation will be tolerated by the 308, that is not going to work with the 223 especially if running at full throttle.

Conventional reloading scales simply will not work. I use gem scales which allow me to hold my loads UNDER 0.1gr.

Is this more work? no. I weighed all my charges for my 6.5 Open rig and that helped my groups shrink. The process is no different for the 223.

If you want to dump from a powder measure or use a electronic powder dispenser, forget it. Even with ball powder, there are the occasional high/low charge that will really screw up your shot.

I do use a powder measure and it gets me close. I trickle the rest. Again, no different then any match ammo I shoot.

The final hurdle is bullets. There has been huge gains in ballistics with the 90's but that has also required lots of testing over a compressed schedule. The bergers have done well with both VLD and BT shooting well in various rifles.

I am presently shooting JLK's and these are working splendidly for me.

7 twist is the no brainer rate. Some are playing and succeeding with slower twists but I just don't need the fuss.

As bullet get better and more prevalent, as more powders get tested to find the right mix, as twists and speeds get defined through lead downrange, the 223 will be as easy to set up as anything else.

Remember our 6BR darling? It almost died in the 70's and 80's as a none useful chambering. Look at what a few years and the right components has revealed?

No the 223 is not for everyone. Maybe it will have trouble at 1000yds? Maybe it will not. Shooting rocks has been very positive in the off season but that is not a paper target with scoring rings.

I guess I will find out this season as I have found combos that work superbly at 500m and hope to really put them to the test at 1000yds once the snow melts.

How well can a 223 shoot at 500m? I have shot enough 1 to 1.5" 5rds groups on calm and windy to know that combo is not a fluke.

If things hold and I can read the wind at 1000yds, could be a very competitive set up.

YMMV

Jerry

[youtube]SrhB29UIpJ4&feature=related[/youtube]

Combo has shot well in 2 barrels and counting.
 
FTRRookie said:
I was in the same position a year ago, and chose to go with .308 because I figured it would be easier to reload for, and I could use the same components for my hunting rifle.

While it has yet to be proven, the new 185 and 200gr hybrid bullet designs should give the .308 a significant advantage over the 90gr .223 in BC, so the only real advantages are lower cost to reload and less recoil.
Click to expand...

Until the 308 can push these bullets to/over 2800fps, the PAPER ballistics still favor the 223/90.

I shoot my 90gr JLK's and Bergers over 2800fps. That is not an easy thing to do with the 308 and heavies.

Still waiting for the "6BR/Varget" powder to show up but we have some very exciting and useable options now.

Jerry
 
The 90grs .223 bullets were tried back in the early 90's. I still have a few JLK bullets he designed back then. Never did catch on.
The benchresters deem the case too long and narrow for ultimate combustion. Not that it won't work, just not the best case. I remember experimenting @ 900 meters and 80gr Sierra where I changed the seating depth and was amazed to see a minute up or down difference. Yes, the .223 requires absolute attention to detail and the favour of the gods to shoot. I've done well at times with it @ 900 meters, so have others, but not consistently.

The .308 case is by nature more forgiving, better case design and usually see it in the winners circle with F/TR with heavier bullets.

What's this 'BR/Varget' Jerry? A new development? I'm already using the powder.
 
6BR and varget. The combo that helped it become so popular and successful.

Or 308 and varget

Same with 260/6.5 Mystic and H4831SC.

There are some combos that simply work and little effort is needed to tune.

The powders today are starting to favour the burn rate that can help the 223 and 90's.

I look forward to spending alot of time at 800 to 1000yds and see what this set up can do.

Jerry

PS as for seating depths, seems to be pretty common with many combos using VLD type bullets. the 6BR is no different.
 
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