Opinion on Battery Assist Levers
- Thread starter BigGameHunter
- Start date
Not that any of you care, but I avoid them like the plague. I am NOT a fan of lower receiver parts that bolt on with fasteners as it just another point of failure. The manual of arms for the AR15 platform is just fine the way it is.
Also, I'm a lefty and the stock release is perfect for a lefty
Also, I'm a lefty and the stock release is perfect for a lefty
Yeah, lets stop worrying about the time. Its not like its a competition or anything
Plus, many of the guys who shoot these matches are LE or MIL and use them as training for the real deal. Then there are others who might want to train as if its the real thing incase they decide the want to join LE or MIL or just incase. During our three gun matches you must show clear before you stow on the table and move to the next stage and yes the timer is still running. Have you even tried competatively shooting? Who cares? People who dont want to get shot thats who. Dont you remember your ACTS and PROVE? Do you throw your rifle on the table unproved then move down range infront of it? If you do you shouldnt be allowed to own firearms because you dont understand the cardinal rules of firearm safety. I have no problem with you liking the BAD system and if you want to use it on your rifle go right ahead. But, dont come on here and spout crap about things you clearly have no clue about(competative shooting). And, dont pick people apart because they choose to train like there life is at risk. There is absolutely nothing wrong with training like the pros imo. Also, brush up on your firearms safety before you hurt yourself or others. Rant over.Yeah, lets stop worrying about the time. Its not like its a competition or anything
If you think the second or two it takes to show clear when using the BC is a game winner/loser, then the match is too easy or you're marksmanship is lacking and you're attempting to make up for it with time. Again, for about the fifth time, focusing on fast accurate shots will have a much higher return than being able to rapidly "show clear" at a match.
As a PAL instructor I am the first to say that ACTS and PROVE are pure crap. The fact that you support them tells me you're the ill informed member in this discussion. Firearms safety consists of FOUR RULES, not NINE! An unattended firearm has never discharged and killed anyone. Competition and using firearms in general is dangerous. Accept the risk or take up a new activity. With regards to LEO and MIL types using competition as free training, you're right they do. However, such ignorant rules as ACTS and PROVE are note part of their doctrine nor are they ever implemented in the real world. ACTS and PROVE were designed by government folks for the dumbest of society. FOUR rules cover all firearms under all conditions by all users. Perhaps you should learn them, in fact there is a sticky on this forum called the FUNDAMENTAL FOUR.
As for competitive shooting, I do compete. I'm well aware of the often ignorant rules used or implemented at matches, including showing clear prior to leaving a firearm or transitioning. This ignorance is rooted squarely in the fear of firearms that is fostered by so many who own them. Again, these rules are often designed to permit the most dangerous of firearms owners the chance to compete with a relatively low chance of wearing their own rounds. Competent shooters of all types including MIL LEO and civilian have zero issue with running a hot range, not clearing guns before transitioning, holstering a hot gun or anything remotely similar. It is the group that doesn't understand their gear or know their skill set is lacking that champion such stupidity.
Aside from my competing I've also taken several professional training courses. All guns were run hot at all times and there were shooters forward of the line while firing. There was even movement behind the line in close proximity to other shooters with hot guns. No one was injured and the skill set ranged from novice to advanced. Ignorant rules foster carelessness more than adult rules like a hot range. IPSC is probably the most stringent with regards to loaded guns and yet there is no shortage of stories of competitors who have somehow had a negligent discharge in the safe handling area where NO AMMO IS ALLOWED. How can this happen if there's no ammo? The answer is simple, people rely on too many rules not logic and the FUNDAMENTAL FOUR. Follow the FUNDAMENTAL FOUR and there wouldn't be negligent discharges.
TDC
I dont know about the matches you shoot but ours are often decided by seconds or even less then a second between some people on shorter courses. Every millisecond counts in competition. I do agree with you however that marksmenship is key and will yield the lowest penalties. I do somewhat agree with you that the ACTS and PROVE are for the dumbest in society but, I would have said careless and absent minded though. They are at the matches sometimes though so it is a good thing in my opinion. Plus, the point of ACTS and PROVE is that it is a redundant system meant to stop ND and a ND can only happen if multiple rules are broken. And, as for the fundamental four you would be breaking rule two "never let the muzzle cross anything you dont want to destroy" if you left your hot rifle on a transition table and then ran infront of it to shoot the rest of the course. And I know what your gonna say, a rifle cant shoot itself right? Well what if after you put it on the transition table and as you move forward the timer knocks it off the table causing a discharge? I know this would be a very unlikely occurance but, I believe in the prepare for the worst hope for the best philosophy. Especially when dealing with something as dangerous as a firearm. All I know is that in my over 20 years of firearms use the only bad situations were caused by not following the ACTS and PROVE system so I will continue to follow it. Keep in mind it is not myself I fear when running courses its the others. I have never had a ND and plan to never have one. We are way off topic here now though. The post was BAD system vs Stoner system and I was simply stating I wont use it because I want my controls to be the same as the majority of ARs for muscle memory purposes. My reference to competition was only one of my examples. It is real life where this really matters and I for one train as if its real life.
You're right, pointing a firearm that you are in control of or were recently in control of(in the case of transitioning) is a violation of the F4 rules. Nowhere in the F4 rules does it say anything about the firearm being physically loaded or not. Remember, rule one states that "all guns are always loaded and should be treated as such." That being the case, it doesn't really matter if the firearm is physically loaded or not. Control the muzzle and there is no potential for bad results. Which means clearing the firearm prior to transition is not necessary. I know what some will say. A hot rifle/pistol being placed in a barrel, on a table etc has the potential for ND. The same potential exists and even more so by requiring an adrenaline pumped competitor to operate controls and show clear. Showing clear also fosters the mindset that "its unloaded, its ok if it sweeps someone or something I'm not comfortable shooting". Which is a direct violation of F4 rule number 2. F4 rules number 2 and 3 cover all firearms when not actually being fired. Don't point them at things you're not comfortable with destroying/shooting and keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target(an appropriate target as defined by rule 2).
The potential for a rifle to fall and discharge is extremely low, but it is a possibility. Where and how a competitor dumps his guns during transitions is the biggest factor for dropped/falling guns. Appropriate transition locations/methods will prevent this.
As for ND's. They don't occur because someone violated the 9 rules of ACTS and PROVE. They occur because people violate F4 rule number 3. "KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ALIGNED ON TARGET." Someone gets hurt because they also violated rule 2. I guess you could say they violated rule number 1 also, but that goes without saying. incidental injuries or damage are often a result of violating rule 4. Damage to houses, barns, cars, etc are a direct result of violating number 4.
As for training for the majority of AR's out there and training for real life. I'm inline with the mentality. It makes sense and saves me money.
To the OP ... I got the B.A.D installed on my Norc M4 and 50% of the time the bolt wont lock back after last round. I personnaly dont mind because i'm only a weekend shooter.
SM
So let me get this straight. The BAD is advantageous for two reasons. It aids in faster reloads, and it aids in locking the bolt to the rear for malfunction clearance or showing clear. Your rifle with BAD lever installed will no longer lock the bolt open on last round, so the critical and most often used feature of the BAD is nul and void because the BAD is installed. From the competitor side of things, your manual of arms now takes more time not less because of the BAD. So the next question is. Why do you keep it if it induces more problems than it solves?
TDC
I have them on two ARs and they are both FAIL FREE
For now. They can and do fail. The charge handle can't fail. Just saying.
TDC
You're right, pointing a firearm that you are in control of or were recently in control of(in the case of transitioning) is a violation of the F4 rules. Nowhere in the F4 rules does it say anything about the firearm being physically loaded or not. Remember, rule one states that "all guns are always loaded and should be treated as such." That being the case, it doesn't really matter if the firearm is physically loaded or not. Control the muzzle and there is no potential for bad results. Which means clearing the firearm prior to transition is not necessary. I know what some will say. A hot rifle/pistol being placed in a barrel, on a table etc has the potential for ND. The same potential exists and even more so by requiring an adrenaline pumped competitor to operate controls and show clear. Showing clear also fosters the mindset that "its unloaded, its ok if it sweeps someone or something I'm not comfortable shooting". Which is a direct violation of F4 rule number 2. F4 rules number 2 and 3 cover all firearms when not actually being fired. Don't point them at things you're not comfortable with destroying/shooting and keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target(an appropriate target as defined by rule 2).
The potential for a rifle to fall and discharge is extremely low, but it is a possibility. Where and how a competitor dumps his guns during transitions is the biggest factor for dropped/falling guns. Appropriate transition locations/methods will prevent this.
As for ND's. They don't occur because someone violated the 9 rules of ACTS and PROVE. They occur because people violate F4 rule number 3. "KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ALIGNED ON TARGET." Someone gets hurt because they also violated rule 2. I guess you could say they violated rule number 1 also, but that goes without saying. incidental injuries or damage are often a result of violating rule 4. Damage to houses, barns, cars, etc are a direct result of violating number 4.
As for training for the majority of AR's out there and training for real life. I'm inline with the mentality. It makes sense and saves me money.
So let me get this straight. The BAD is advantageous for two reasons. It aids in faster reloads, and it aids in locking the bolt to the rear for malfunction clearance or showing clear. Your rifle with BAD lever installed will no longer lock the bolt open on last round, so the critical and most often used feature of the BAD is nul and void because the BAD is installed. From the competitor side of things, your manual of arms now takes more time not less because of the BAD. So the next question is. Why do you keep it if it induces more problems than it solves?
TDC
Im with you on the transition table location. That can make a course more safe. But, it is even more safe to show clear and leave action open no? As for all this stuff about the fundamental 4, it is really the same basic concept as ACTS and PROVE. Well more the ACTS part. I mean you say "They don't occur because someone violated the 9 rules of ACTS and PROVE. They occur because people violate F4 rule number 3. "KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ALIGNED ON TARGET." The T in ACTS is Trigger finger must be kept off the trigger and out of the trigger guard. Same thing no? I am not trying to fight here just saying there is no such thing as being too safe with firearms in my opinion. To say the ACTS and PROVE system is s**t is kind of rediculous when really it is the same thing as the fundamental 4 plus some extra rules. The bottom line is I want as many fail safes as possible, within reason of course, to protect me from the unsafe, absent minded, or bonehead firearm owners out there. And, they are plentiful. All you have to do is read on here for a while to see how many there are. At a 3 gun match I was at a competitor stowed his rifle on the table and finished the course. Comps were told to only load 5 rounds so the guns would be empty when put on the table. After the round finished he picked up his rifle and proceeded to sweep half the on lookers. He quickly realized his mistake and was really embarassed. I know mistakers can happen, he is a good guy, just made a mistake. Thats not the end of the story though. So, after all this he goes to open the action and step off the firing line and out flys a live round. He loaded to capacity out of habit. And, the safety wasnt even on as far as I know. Now, I know he broke one of the cardinal rules but, had the rifle been cleared, there wouldnt have been a round in the chamber. This illustrates the need for redundancy I am talking about. We now show clear.
Several issues with your post. The F4 have been around a lot longer than ACTS and PROVE. F4 consist of four rules, not nine, making it easier to learn and remember.
Showing clear makes the firearm less dangerous/more safe. It does not make the user more safe/aware of their actions. As your story pointed out, the competitor thought his rifle was empty and it wasn't. Rule one of the F4 covers such ignorant beliefs/actions. All guns are always loaded. The reality here is that loaded firearms don't discharge without the help of human hands. Stop thinking there is a safe gun and a safer gun when its unloaded, there is only safe and unsafe users. The F4 cover all guns at all times. Same goes for use of manual safeties. Its great that we use them, but too many people rely on them. A manual safety is only insurance should you drop or otherwise lose control of the firearm/muzzle. Manual safeties don't prevent dumb people from pointing firearms at others. So safety on or off, I don't really care. Don't point it at me and we won't have a problem. I still think its a great idea to use the manual safety as it aids in reducing ND's when you lose control/drop your firearm.
Now, when someone like the competitor in your story violates any of the F4 (s)he goes home. No questions asked, no forgiveness, not once, not ever. Holding other firearms owners/competitors to the utmost standard is the only way to stop such ignorant behavior. Competing is a privilege not a right, and it therefore needs to be earned. Allowing ignorant and dangerous actions by others only degrades the pedigree of all firearms owners. I don't care if you as the competitor are jacked up on adrenaline. Safety should always be the first thing on your mind, the F4 should be running through your head at all times. Gun shops are the worst places for rule violations. All the guns are "unloaded" right?? WRONG!
TDC
You are not getting my point man. I always treat all firearms as loaded as should everyone. Of course I know showing clear does not make the shooter more safe. The point is humans make mistakes. Not some of them, ALL OF THEM. So why not implement a redundant system? Then even if a mistake is made, other measures are there to prevent a ND. And, showing clear should have no effect on a persons handling of a firearm. He didnt sweep people because he thought the rifle was empty, he did it because he made a mistake. However, if there was no round in the chamber, even with the mistake no one could have got shot. Understand?
Fair enough all i was doing was "just sayin"
I hear you.
Here's the point. If someone f*cks up by violating rules 2 and 3 causing an ND and/or injury. Than same person won't remember or think about clearing the firearm in the first place. Why waste the effort to learn, remember and practice several "levels" of safety? There is only one level and it has only FOUR rules. Focus on the four, namely number 3 and you won't have an issue. ND's are 100% predictable and preventable. They are the result of complacency, ignorance of the F4, or low frequency single digit mouth breathers possessing firearms. Firearm safety is a mindset, some get it, lots don't. No level or quantity of additional safety measures will ever defeat an idiot who doesn't care to read or practice them.
TDC
I hear you.
Here's the point. If someone f*cks up by violating rules 2 and 3 causing an ND and/or injury. Than same person won't remember or think about clearing the firearm in the first place. Why waste the effort to learn, remember and practice several "levels" of safety? There is only one level and it has only FOUR rules. Focus on the four, namely number 3 and you won't have an issue. ND's are 100% predictable and preventable. They are the result of complacency, ignorance of the F4, or low frequency single digit mouth breathers possessing firearms. Firearm safety is a mindset, some get it, lots don't. No level or quantity of additional safety measures will ever defeat an idiot who doesn't care to read or practice them.
TDC
You have to show clear to the timer and lock action open before you stow on the table at our matches. And, I just gave you a for instance where this extra level of safety could stop an incident. Anyway, I am done. One day I will learn that arguing on CGN is a waste of time.
Showing clear isn't an extra level of safety. Unnecessary handling of firearms leads to ND's, not prevention. Match rules are match rules. BAD levers are a gimmick at best and create more problems than they're worth. Run it if you want, but focusing on administrative manipulations instead of focusing on fast accurate hits(which score points) speaks for itself.
TDC
Bolivar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Okay, lets leave the 4 rules and focus on the above. Good or bad the match rules are the match rules. If competitor makes good hits fast but looses time on a transition because the BCG does not lock back on the empty mag, they still loose time. To me this is were a BAD is an asset because you can rack the bolt back with the CH and lock it without changing your grip on the rifle. This also assumes that to show clear the action has to be LOCKED open rather than quickly showing clear and letting the action close again.
However, in the case of my rifle, the BAL acutally cause failure lock so that was a net negative rather than a positive back up.
Just sayin'
Man, are you retarded or high? I have been saying since the start that I am against the BAD lever. And, how does unnecessary handling of a firearm on a hot range, while pointed down range, while under the direct supervision of a range officer lead to a ND or any unsafe condition? You dont even put your finger in the trigger guard when you unload and show clear. Proving no bullets are in the firearm doesnt add a level of safety? Ah, no bullets no fire genius. Not that you shouldnt assume every firearm is loaded. And, I agreed with you a couple of posts ago that getting fast accurate hits is more important. Seriously man, you cant remember a couple of posts ago? And you are supposedly a firearms instructor who is against the ACTS and PROVE system? You also think that taking extra safety precautions when dealing with firearms is a bad idea. You sound like a good firearms instructor to me. That was sarcasm in case you didnt get it. Anyway, I said I wasnt trying to start a fight but, you wont leave it alone and keep digging a deeper hole. I couldnt leave this one alone. But, now I know your character and will refrain from posting to you.
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I hear you with regards to the BAD being a negative for you, which is my greatest concern with the device. For some it works, for others it doesn't. Just not worth the risk.
Lets cover this point by point.
Pointing your rifle down range and having an ND is still an ND. In the real world there is no "safe direction" or "down range". The square range is nearly idiot proof with regards to "safe direction".
A range officer is nearly useless unless s/he physically intervenes. Not to mention as an adult, you shouldn't need someone supervising your activities. I don't have RO's at my local range, its more of an adult setup where you govern yourself. At matches, its different. Someone is there to score your run, watch for violations, and possibly prevent you from doing something dangerous which you've likely never done in your life.
I'm aware of the show clear process. However, the more people f*ck with a firearm the greater the chance of an ND. No human contact means no discharge, regardless of whether or not it is physically loaded. The belief that the firearm is "unloaded" is what leads to someone getting shot. No one was ever accidentally shot with a loaded gun. People believe it was unloaded which is why they do dumb sh*t like point it at others and pull the trigger. Hey wait. Isn't pointing a firearm at something you don't want to shoot and keeping your finger off the trigger two of the F4 rules???
Extra safety precautions are just additional steps to forget or apply incorrectly. The F4 are rock solid and work 100% of the time when applied. No different than any other "additional safety precautions." If they aren't applied they can't work. So why waste the effort on multiple levels when four rules covers every firearm under every situation with every user.
TDC
