Looking for opinions on new 300 or 338

Eagleeye this is truly amazing. The fastest I got the 210 bergers going in my 26" sendero was 3090 fps with 94gr of retumbo. Considering most people put ~75gr of powder in their 300 win mags I would LOVE to see your load data on how you get 3000+ with the 210s and a 300 win mag. Not sure how long your barrel is. The OP is talking about a vanguard or similar hunting rifle. Not some super long barrel bench gun.

The ballistics I posted for the 168 Berger are achieved in my 24" hunting rifle.


And no, as I stated I have not used the 300 win mag but rather its big brothers. Not sure how the smaller 300 win mag can do what the bigger ones can't but I'm all ears.

I am also curious about the definition of a hunting bullet. What criteria must be met before it is called so? Does Walt Berger (who surely knows more about bullets than you do) saying so make it so? Does ballistics gel? Dead animals? What makes the berger not a hunting bullet and what makes a ballistic tip one? Or a tsx?

Eagleye said:
kman300 said:
Well I don't know what "long range hammer" means to most people but lets assume long range starts after 500 yards.

The chart shows a 168gr berger launched at 3050fps (very achievable with a 7mm rem mag). Please feel free to post a 300 win mag load that will hit harder, shoot flatter, and have less wind drift. Not to mention the 7mm rem mag kicks less and is cheaper to shoot

Well, you have obviously not worked with the 300 Win Mag enough, particularly at long range.
The 210 Berger is the bullet, and 3050 is a realistic velocity in a 300 Win Mag, some even reaching 3100 because of the shorter bearing surface of that bullet. The trajectory and wind drift is identical to the 168 Berger, and it does arrive at 1000 with quite a bit more "thump" than does the 7 Mag.
Granted, the recoil will be greater, and a bit more powder will be burned.
The 300 Win Mag [or 308 Norma] do not take a back seat to the 7 mag in any ballistic race.
Additionally, as far as I am concerned [and many others agree], that Berger VLD is not a hunting bullet, regardless of what Berger may claim.
Trying to compare a true "hunting" bullet with a Berger will have the Berger ahead every time. It is simply a sleeker profile.
I shoot Bergers in 1000 yard competition, and love them for that.
For hunting, I much prefer a different style and construction.
Regards, Eagleye.
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kman300 said:
Well I suppose you can have both calibers, develop loads for them, shoot them, chronograph them, and look at the ballistics and come to the conclusion I did, or you can post as you did.
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This statement borders on an accusation that I am pulling figures off a chart or out of the air. I'm here to tell you, that's just not so!!
I have been shooting for more than 50 years, and my statements come from experience, not from guesses.
I also own a couple of chronographs, FWIW.
A 300 Win will drive a 210 Berger at 3000+ using Reloder 22, H1000, Vihtavuori N165, IMR 7828, Norma MRP [and probably a couple of others I haven't tried] in a 24" barrel without any danger of blowing up the works.
My 26" 308 Norma Mag makes 3110 avg, using 76 grains of Norma MRP.
BTW, my long range bench guns are all in one variety of 6.5 or 6mm, not 7mm or .308.
However I have shot the 7mm Mag and the big 30's right out to 1000 many times.
Have won 1000 yard competitions with both as well.
I'm not knocking the 7mm Mag, it is a wonderful chambering.
Just don't try to give it powers it does not possess.
As far as Walt Berger goes, he makes one fine long range bullet, but a true hunting bullet??
Too fragile for me for general usage.
Your decisions may be different, and that is fine.
We will simply have to agree to disagree. :)
Apologies to the OP for hijacking this thread!!
Regards, Eagleye
 
The quote you are referring to was for sksavenger. I quoted him.

Your 300 win mag speeds are simply amazing. That is all. They FAR exceed what Berger will give you for their bullet and match my 300 rum speeds with 95gr of powder. Not sure there is a point to a 300 wby or 300 rum if the 300 win may can match them in a 24" barrel.


Eagleye said:
This statement borders on an accusation that I am pulling figures off a chart or out of the air. I'm here to tell you, that's just not so!!
I have been shooting for more than 50 years, and my statements come from experience, not from guesses.
I also own a couple of chronographs, FWIW.
A 300 Win will drive a 210 Berger at 3000+ using Reloder 22, H1000, Vihtavuori N165, IMR 7828, Norma MRP [and probably a couple of others I haven't tried] in a 24" barrel without any danger of blowing up the works.
My 26" 308 Norma Mag makes 3110 avg, using 76 grains of Norma MRP.
BTW, my long range bench guns are all in one variety of 6.5 or 6mm, not 7mm or .308.
However I have shot the 7mm Mag and the big 30's right out to 1000 many times.
Have won 1000 yard competitions with both as well.
I'm not knocking the 7mm Mag, it is a wonderful chambering.
Just don't try to give it powers it does not possess.
As far as Walt Berger goes, he makes one fine long range bullet, but a true hunting bullet??
Too fragile for me for general usage.
Your decisions may be different, and that is fine.
We will simply have to agree to disagree. :)
Apologies to the OP for hijacking this thread!!
Regards, Eagleye
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kman300 said:
The quote you are referring to was for sksavenger. I quoted him.
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My apologies for taking umbrage at your comment! [Thought it was for me]
I originally started squeezing the 300 Win & 308 Norma after reading a book written by Bob Hagel, who was not hesitant about loading a chambering to it's potential.
Obviously, one can get into trouble if he is not cautious, but none of the loads I use show Higher than normal pressures, and all keep primer pockets tight for at least 7-8 firings.
I have a 7mm RUM. It consumes volumes of Very slow burning powders to squeeze another 150-200 FPS over the 7 RM.
Is it worth it? Good question. lol.
I played a lot with the 7mm STW as well.
You just keep right on shooting.
There is no substitute for actual shooting and evaluating your personal results.
Regards, Eagleye.
 
Kman300, you are up against over 90 years experience that says you are wrong (that's just Eagleye and me). I have chrono'd thousands of 7mm RM,300 Win, Wby and RUM. I routinely run 3350 with a 180 in 3 different 300 wins 24" bbl and 3120 with 200 parts in the same rifles. My current 300 Wby does 3240 with 200 accubonds or parts in a 24" bbl and my 300 RUM gets 3410 with 200 accubonds or A-frames in a 26" bbl. I have owned and shot some 6 or 7 different 7 mmRM and not one would break 3100 with 160 gn bullets and 2 would just touch the 3000 mark all with 24" bbls. I also own 5 different chronos including a 35P and routinely tandem them to check the chronos. My son also shoots a 300 RUM and his favorite load produces 3700 fps with a 165 accubond, through 3 different chronos at three different times.
He has also achieved over 3400 with 200 grn bullets in this cartridge.
As far as Berger bullets go, well let's just say they aren't my idea of a hunting bullet. At the speeds I drive bullets it's been a long time since I've used a basic cup and core bullet. When I'm paying 50K for a hunt I AIN"T taking a C+C bullet, if you think that means I think I know more about bullets than Mr. Berger than so be it. I think there is a very good chance that I have killed more animals than Mr Berger and I suspect Eagleye is getting up there with his game count too. I might at this point ask your real world experience, that you so adamently cling to ballistics from charts and tables while basing your entire argument on one bullet. Very odd !!
 
kman300 said:
Well I suppose you can have both calibers, develop loads for them, shoot them, chronograph them, and look at the ballistics and come to the conclusion I did, or you can post as you did.
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Nope. I just know the RUM can push a 200 grn bullet faster than a 7mm can launch a 168 grn. Physics explains the rest. But you keep thinkin the 7mm is the hardest hitting long range hammer. You have a lot of believers ;)
 
Ok, the 7mm RemMag is a fine round. It works, its accurate, fast, and can be used to hunt all kinds of game. But these advantages are mostly achived out of a 26inch barrel. With a 22inch barrel, you're getting the same performance as a 24inch barrel .270win but with added recoil and reduced barrel life.

When I watched that video 1899 posted, and then the guy in the video zoomed out to show how far away he was, HOLY ####! That moose dropped like a rock. I really like the .300WinMag, But like it even more after seeing that video! I knew the rounds was capable, but I didn't know it was that capable.
 
I'm not good with multi quoting like some people do so bare with me here.

The OP is looking at a vanguard, doesn't want to spend more then $1000 and wants this gun mostly for paper. Lets just keep that in mind for a sec.

Eagleeye:
I agree with you completely that it's all about shooting said guns yourself and building your own data. If those loads work for you, who am I to say otherwise? It certainly isn't my intention to say otherwise, I am only surprised by the actual speeds you are getting. It may be the case of lawyers watering everything down (7mm rem mag is also victim of this). I just had a look at my old Nosler Number one Reloading manual. It lists 4 loads that are right at 3000fps for the 200gr partition. So who knows, if it works for you it works.

c-fmbi:
To be completely frank your numbers are so far out there I'm not even sure what to say. Nosler says 92gr H1000 is max for the 200gr NAB in the 300 ultra for 3050fps. You are getting 350fps faster than that. Are the numbers or examples you are citing in anyway relevant to the OP (let's not forget about him)? He's looking at a vanguard for paper punching. Are your examples encouraging someone to buy a off the rack hunting rifle and then make reloads WAY over max because some guy on the internet said he gets 3350fps with 180's out of a 300 win mag? (Nosler says 3000fps max btw with the 180's). I find examples such as yours rather missleading. All the numbers you posted are far above what the reloading data says. If you need to go way above max data, use more powder and have way more recoil to beat the lowly 7mm rem mag with a safe load then by all means. I just think it's irresponsible to post these very high numbers and use them as a basis to prove superiority over a completely safe load out of the 7mm rem mag. He doesn't have a custom gun with a match chamber and a long barrel.
As for not using Bergers on a 50k hunt, well Bergers are for longrange hammering stuff. They have very high BC and are more fragile to still expand at lower speeds at extended ranges. You will most likely not be shooting at long range on a 50k hunt so by all means use a .4bc tsx or anything else that tickles your fancy. Bergers are for long range which is what the OP wanted. Nobody is saying to use them at 50 yards on a moose. Use whatever bc bullet you want for that. It doesn't matter.

I have stated from the very beginning that for "longrange" shooting I believe the 7mm rem mag with a 168gr berger (or heaven forbid the 162gr amax, he is just mainly paper punching after all and it has a better bc than the 168 berger) to be the better choice over the 300 win mag. It shoots flatter, hits harder, has less wind drift, costs less and recoils less (with completely safe reloading data, if you are citing 3100fps with a 210berger to debunk this I will respectfully point out that the data you get from Berger gets you no where near this speed and is way over max.). I own and shoot a 7mm rm with a 24" barrel and 168gr bergers. I get 3042fps avg in winter hunting temperatures and am not over max for my reloading data. I have also stated that I owned a 300 wby. The only load I was actually serious about was a 180gr tsx at 3180fps with 85gr imr 7828. I have also stated that I owned a 300 rum. I achieved 3160fps with the 200gr nabs and 3090fps with the 210 bergers. This was with low to mid 90gr retumbo.


sksavenger:
I never said the 300 rum can't push a 200gr bullet faster than a 7mm rem mag can push the 168gr. I said it barely matches it ballisticly and perhaps I should have said it doesn't offer much improvement but it does offer much more recoil, 25gr more powder per shot and you need a heavier gun or a muzzle break or it's no fun at all.

At 1000 yards the numbers for my achieved safe speeds are as follows

7mm rem mag 168gr berger 3050fps
1746fps
1137ft/lbs
55.11" wind drift (10mph wind)

300 rum 200gr accubond 3160fps
1768fps
1388ft/lbs
55.77" wind drift (10mph wind)

300 rum 210 berger 3090fps
1798fps
1508ft/lbs
52.54" wind drift (10mph wind)

This is comparing a 7mm rem mag to a 300 ultra mag.

Berger data for the 210gr berger in the 300 win mag all tops out at ~2850fps from a 26" barrel btw.

300 win mag 210 berger 2850fps
1631fps
1198ft/lbs
59.04" wind drift (10mph wind)

If you impose a 1800fps minimum impact velocity to ensure expansion the 300 win mag reaches this threshhold at 831 yards. The 168gr berger does it at 950 yards.

Perhaps I was foolish to believe that one should stay within published load data specs. The guys in the labs certainly have better gear for testing pressure then me looking at flattened primers or sticky bolt lift.

I would also like to mention that heaven forbid the OP doesn't reload! Thank goodness there is excellent match ammo available for the 7mm rem mag as well as the 300 win mag (but it won't be doing 3100fps with the 210 bergers).

I have also had a 338 lapua with a 30" barrel for several years and this to me is the next step up from a 7mm for "longrange" shooting. The 30's and the 7mm are too close and I would skip the extra recoil and cost of shooting the 30's to get none or marginal better performance over a 7mm rem mag that kicks like a 30-06. A big 338 in a heavy gun, muzzle break and 300gr vld's is an upgrade over the 7mm. I don't feel the 30's are (again with "normal" max reloads).

Cheers
 
kman300 said:
I'm not good with multi quoting like some people do so bare with me here.

The OP is looking at a vanguard, doesn't want to spend more then $1000 and wants this gun mostly for paper. Lets just keep that in mind for a sec.
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The OP also said hes looking for opinions on 300 or 338. Lets just keep that in mind for a sec. Where do you get your 500-1000 yard data from? I tend to believe c-fbmi (look at his posts in other threads...the man has massive amounts of experience) and eagle eye who has actual tested results also. And common sense says that a 200 grn bullet travelling at a higher speed than a 168 grn bullet is going to have a lot more energy and momentum. I agree with you that the big magnums are not efficient but they get their intended job done. its like if a guy lost a drag race and brought up that he used less gas. Big deal....he still lost, just like the 7mm. Which leaves your recoil argument. No Sh!t !! a 200 grn bullet going 3100+ is bound to kick. Its a reaction to the far higher muzzle energy compared to the 7mm.
 
sksavenger said:
The OP also said hes looking for opinions on 300 or 338. Lets just keep that in mind for a sec. Where do you get your 500-1000 yard data from? I tend to believe c-fbmi (look at his posts in other threads...the man has massive amounts of experience) and eagle eye who has actual tested results also.
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Well, I for one am beginning to think that c-fbmi is loosing credibility. Every time someone disagrees with him on anything, he mentions how much he spends on hunting as an argument that he knows things. Sorry, but that logical fallacy always smacks of insecurity and running out of reason.

The velocities quoted should be a real red flag. Kman is absolutely correct that no one should be going after those sorts of numbers when they violate all the data, and certainly my experience. (I must admit, I have never spent 50,000 on a hunt. Does that make me ignorant? See how irrelevant that argument really is?)
 
sksavenger said:
The OP also said hes looking for opinions on 300 or 338. Lets just keep that in mind for a sec. Where do you get your 500-1000 yard data from? I tend to believe c-fbmi (look at his posts in other threads...the man has massive amounts of experience) and eagle eye who has actual tested results also. And common sense says that a 200 grn bullet travelling at a higher speed than a 168 grn bullet is going to have a lot more energy and momentum. I agree with you that the big magnums are not efficient but they get their intended job done. its like if a guy lost a drag race and brought up that he used less gas. Big deal....he still lost, just like the 7mm. Which leaves your recoil argument. No Sh!t !! a 200 grn bullet going 3100+ is bound to kick. Its a reaction to the far higher muzzle energy compared to the 7mm.
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I get my 500-1000 yard data from shooting at those ranges. I will humbly suggest you have not shot at "long range" if your common sense tells you that a 200gr bullet will beat a 168gr bullet just because it starts out faster. Ballistic coefficient of a bullet is the deciding factor. Not how fast they start out as.

Did you base all your comments on your "common" sense? Do you not actually have any experience at long range with said caliber/bullets? :confused:
 
kman300 said:
I get my 500-1000 yard data from shooting at those ranges. I will humbly suggest you have not shot at "long range" if your common sense tells you that a 200gr bullet will beat a 168gr bullet just because it starts out faster. Ballistic coefficient of a bullet is the deciding factor. Not how fast they start out as.
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So True!!
One has to compare bullets with similar profiles and similar BC's to have meaningful comparisons.
That is why I used the 30 cal. 210 Berger [BC: .640] when addresssing the 7mm 168 Berger [BC: .641]
Since the BC's are so close, the trajectory/Wind drift would be identical if the bullets are started at the same velocity.
By the same token, even if you start a bullet with a lower BC at somewhat higher velocity, it will shed velocity faster, and will drift more in the wind than will the sleeker bullet.
One must compare apples to apples, so to speak.
Regards, Eagleye.
 
sksavenger said:
Oh ? And what exactly are you using out there to get your exact velocity and energy numbers?
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Actually, it is impractical to shoot through a chronograph at any distance that would endanger the device.
Nevertheless, we have charts that give the figures for long distance.
Our actual drop figures over the long distance tell us immediately whether we are slower or faster than posted data.
If when actually shooting at long distance, your drop figures coincide with the figures given by calculations, you can say the the velocities will also coincide with those on the chart.
Many other factors must be considered as well.
Angle up or down, Altitude, Humidity, Temperature, all factor in.
As range increases, these become more important.
Energy can be calculated from velocity values, of course.
Regards, Eagleye.
 
Eagleye said:
Actually, it is impractical to shoot through a chronograph at any distance that would endanger the device.
Nevertheless, we have charts that give the figures for long distance.
Our actual drop figures over the long distance tell us immediately whether we are slower or faster than posted data.
If when actually shooting at long distance, your drop figures coincide with the figures given by calculations, you can say the the velocities will also coincide with those on the chart.
Many other factors must be considered as well.
Angle up or down, Altitude, Humidity, Temperature, all factor in.
As range increases, these become more important.
Energy can be calculated from velocity values, of course.
Regards, Eagleye.
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Yes, I realize its from charts. I do have a ballistics calculator and I dont see how the 7mm matches the 30 magnums unless you pick good loads for the 7 and bad ones for the 30's. I also realize all the above are factors but I still dont agree the 300 RUM barely matches the 7mm. I thaught you disagreed too but maybe you changed your numbers.
 
sksavenger said:
Yes, I realize its from charts. I do have a ballistics calculator and I dont see how the 7mm matches the 30 magnums unless you pick good loads for the 7 and bad ones for the 30's. I also realize all the above are factors but I still dont agree the 300 RUM barely matches the 7mm. I thaught you disagreed too but maybe you changed your numbers.
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I didn't change any numbers. I have no experience with the 300RUM, and do not have any input to offer on that chambering.

Note, I only said the trajectory and wind drift between a 7mm Bullet and a .308 bullet would be the same, if the BCs and starting velocity are the same.If both bullets arrive at 1000 yards, travelling the same speed, the 30 cal, being heavier, will retain more energy.
Simple physics, no mystery at all.
I still think the big 30's trump the 7mm's by a little bit.
Regards, Eagleye
 
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