AR accuracy vs varmint savage bolt action?
- Thread starter Kryogen
- Start date
'Rack grade' AR's will shoot anywhere from 1.5- 4 MOA...
Some of the premium AR's (Les Baer, etc.,) are supposed to be good for sub MOA.
The Savage bolt gun should shoot 0.5 MOA without breaking a sweat....as long as one is capable of hand loading.....
1/2 moa is obtainable with an AR. AR15 and AR10 rifles that have match barrels and match triggers can achieve the 1/2 moa mark fairly easily.
My Armalite AR10 shoots 1/2 moa. With the same twist and length barrel my 5R milspec will shoot .4 moa. So yes the bolt actions are or can be more accurate, but the AR platform is extremely close.
Stag offers a 1/2 moa guarantee on the 6R AR15. Les Bauer, there have been reports of closer to 1/4 inch.
The AR is the exception to the semi auto rule that they can't be as accurate as bolt guns. While I don't think you'll be seeing one win a bench rest competition, they can run with the high end tactical rifles. I suspect the age old idea that a semi isn't accurate comes from the older generation of hunters. A generation where the FN was viewed as how accurate a semi auto is and all sniper accuracy rifles were bolt action. If you wanted a sub moa rifle you had to go to a bolt action or have 10K ready to buy the now prohibited PSG1, the very rare Walther WA2000 etc. The problem is times changed and many weren't interested so they didn't follow the current innovations. What was once sort of true, isn't today.
The design features of the AR rifle done up for accuracy work on the same time honoured accuracy principles seen in many bolt guns. Aluminum stock (the actual receiver), free float barrel, locking rotating bolt, and match grade trigger. The DI does a good job of not creating harmonic and repeatability issues commonly found in piston system semi autos.
My Armalite AR10 shoots 1/2 moa. With the same twist and length barrel my 5R milspec will shoot .4 moa. So yes the bolt actions are or can be more accurate, but the AR platform is extremely close.
Stag offers a 1/2 moa guarantee on the 6R AR15. Les Bauer, there have been reports of closer to 1/4 inch.
The AR is the exception to the semi auto rule that they can't be as accurate as bolt guns. While I don't think you'll be seeing one win a bench rest competition, they can run with the high end tactical rifles. I suspect the age old idea that a semi isn't accurate comes from the older generation of hunters. A generation where the FN was viewed as how accurate a semi auto is and all sniper accuracy rifles were bolt action. If you wanted a sub moa rifle you had to go to a bolt action or have 10K ready to buy the now prohibited PSG1, the very rare Walther WA2000 etc. The problem is times changed and many weren't interested so they didn't follow the current innovations. What was once sort of true, isn't today.
The design features of the AR rifle done up for accuracy work on the same time honoured accuracy principles seen in many bolt guns. Aluminum stock (the actual receiver), free float barrel, locking rotating bolt, and match grade trigger. The DI does a good job of not creating harmonic and repeatability issues commonly found in piston system semi autos.
what about norinco accuracy vs stag ?
My point is id like to use my AR for 100-200 yards shooting because reloading for 300 win mag is expensive.
Will a norinco ar shoot good enough to do target at 100-200, or should I get a stag, or what?
My point is id like to use my AR for 100-200 yards shooting because reloading for 300 win mag is expensive.
Will a norinco ar shoot good enough to do target at 100-200, or should I get a stag, or what?
if you want to achieve sub-moa, then no. there are some AR's out there that can (not always however) manage 1 moa out of the box, but ususally you need to build from the ground up for sub-moa results.
Mmm ok so the reg 14.5 or 16'' AR will not shoot sub MOA. Just wondering...
Then if I want to target shoot 223 I might consider a savage bolt action with a scope, and keep the AR with irons for close range.
Of course that requires another rifle and another scope...
Then if I want to target shoot 223 I might consider a savage bolt action with a scope, and keep the AR with irons for close range.
Of course that requires another rifle and another scope...
This all depends on what size target you want to hit and at what distance.
For example here is what I shoot prone with Govt profile AR and SA Classic green with no problems.
Irons: 4" clay @100m, 8" round steel plate @ 200m, 12" round steel plate @ 300m.
4X optic: 8" round steel plate @ 300m, 12" round steel plate @ 400m
A match grade AR with a 10X scope and match ammo will pop golf balls at 200m no problem.
For example here is what I shoot prone with Govt profile AR and SA Classic green with no problems.
Irons: 4" clay @100m, 8" round steel plate @ 200m, 12" round steel plate @ 300m.
4X optic: 8" round steel plate @ 300m, 12" round steel plate @ 400m
A match grade AR with a 10X scope and match ammo will pop golf balls at 200m no problem.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Just rebarreled a Norc M4 with a McGowen match barrel in a 223 Wylde. Shot great.
With 69gr MK's, 1/2 min at 100yds was repeatable. A few smaller but that was not the average. Nothing done except swapping in the barrel and handloading.
So an AR can be made to shoot very well.
Ultimately, the best an AR can do equals what many quality factory rifles do off the rack.
Spend the same money on the bolt rifle and there is no comparison.
But I quite enjoyed the accuracy of the AR and fast shooting. If they weren't restricted, I would have one set up for 1000yd fun in a heartbeat.
Jerry
lejarretnoir
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- 162km from Connaught
Just shot my 14.5" Norc M4 with handloads and a 16X power scope. Best groups with original handguards and barrel were 1MOA @ 100yds with Berger 55gr bullets so far.
Not the easiest gun to bench rest in carbine form and trigger is OK at 4lbs. I might be able squeeze a bit more more out of it with a better trigger, but 2MOA for sure with factory 55gr AE, 1.5 MOA with 68gr Hornady match.
I'll install the JP trigger springs for the next test and try the 55gr Bergers again. Seems to like them. To be honest, only need the 55gr FMJ for CQB ranges. Match bullets would be overkill at short ranges under 50yds.
Not the easiest gun to bench rest in carbine form and trigger is OK at 4lbs. I might be able squeeze a bit more more out of it with a better trigger, but 2MOA for sure with factory 55gr AE, 1.5 MOA with 68gr Hornady match.
I'll install the JP trigger springs for the next test and try the 55gr Bergers again. Seems to like them. To be honest, only need the 55gr FMJ for CQB ranges. Match bullets would be overkill at short ranges under 50yds.
Yeah, sure...there's no doubt that AR's are capable of being built into MOA shooters...but why not answer the original question in a practical, real-world way?
What percentage of the AR's you see at the range are printing MOA groups? I would bet that it's well under 5 percent of them. All their owners tell you that AR's are that good, and some of them even tell you that their individual AR is that good...but very few of them ever turn around, sit down at the bench, and produce a MOA group.
What percentage of Savage HB varminters you see at the range are printing MOA groups? Most of them! If one of them isn't producing a group that small, the owner wants to know why. Discussions and debates ensue. That kind of accuracy is generally expected and is usually produced, and often significantly improved upon.
Don't even get started on what it costs to get a MOA Savage varminter vs. what it costs to get a MOA AR.
What percentage of the AR's you see at the range are printing MOA groups? I would bet that it's well under 5 percent of them. All their owners tell you that AR's are that good, and some of them even tell you that their individual AR is that good...but very few of them ever turn around, sit down at the bench, and produce a MOA group.
What percentage of Savage HB varminters you see at the range are printing MOA groups? Most of them! If one of them isn't producing a group that small, the owner wants to know why. Discussions and debates ensue. That kind of accuracy is generally expected and is usually produced, and often significantly improved upon.
Don't even get started on what it costs to get a MOA Savage varminter vs. what it costs to get a MOA AR.
lejarretnoir
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- 162km from Connaught
Very few shooters have the capability to get a stock Carbine AR at 1 MOA to begin with. Bench technique and trigger control are very important here.
The Savage will win hands down for accuracy vs cost. It's just fun to see how an AR can get there with tweaking and mods.
- Location
- victoria bc
This is why the AR is inheritly more accurate than other semi's....now let's get them de restricted so we can hunt with them...,
While I can't answer the specific AR vs Savage quetion...I have had the following experience with AR15's.
16" ATRS custom upper with heavy Lilja barrel - 1/2 to 3/4 moa
24" RRA varminter upper - 3/4 moa but I think it can do better (just got it)
16" RRA LAR16 stock upper with two stage trigger - 1.25 moa but again I think it can do better with uncrimped or lighter crimped handloads.
The above were acheived with handloads or in the case of the varminter with factory match ammo (Hornady or Nosler - I don't recall).
As somone said the limiting factors for AR's are often the trigger and the guy pulling the trigger. I'm not that great of shooter but I cheat with a lead sled from the bench.
AR's are very accurate rifles unfortunately it sucks that they are restricted. Can't wait for my annual pilmagrage to South Dakota to go shoot prairie dogs for a few days.
16" ATRS custom upper with heavy Lilja barrel - 1/2 to 3/4 moa
24" RRA varminter upper - 3/4 moa but I think it can do better (just got it)
16" RRA LAR16 stock upper with two stage trigger - 1.25 moa but again I think it can do better with uncrimped or lighter crimped handloads.
The above were acheived with handloads or in the case of the varminter with factory match ammo (Hornady or Nosler - I don't recall).
As somone said the limiting factors for AR's are often the trigger and the guy pulling the trigger. I'm not that great of shooter but I cheat with a lead sled from the bench.
AR's are very accurate rifles unfortunately it sucks that they are restricted. Can't wait for my annual pilmagrage to South Dakota to go shoot prairie dogs for a few days.
