Rolling blocks

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ratherbefishin

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I must admit a fascination for them-Tradeex has a few in-does anybody hunt with them-and if so, what is your experiance?Do you shoot BP or smokeless,cast or jacketed bullets and what velocity can be achieved safely[I'm well aware these are well over 100 years old-but if they used good steel like the 6.5x55 Husqvarnas do-they could still be pretty strong]

I note the some of the old 12x44 rb were rebarreled to 8x58 as ''hunting rifles''probably for moose in Sweden /Norway
 
I shoot an 1870 8x58R Danish. It is accurate to 100 yards with iron sights. And I have been tempted to take it hunting many times. I think it would make an excellent field gun.

I shoot smokeless and have shot both cast bullets and jacketed 8mm bullets. Both perform well. If you look for it you will find the load that my gun prefers.

I think I was getting about 2200 fps, from the jacket rounds, but would have to put it over a chrono again to be sure.

I have been told the 8X58R original receivers were stronger but I can't prove that.

Buy one. Soon. They are slowing becoming hard to find again.
 
I have converted a couple of Sweeds from Tradex. They are indeed well over 100yrs old (1871 & 1873) for the two I have. MY views on Roller action strength go like this. They were originally designed for Black powder loads, at least the older ones. Generally they were case hardened, And can be considered safe enough for those type loads. If you feel the need to purchase a 100 year old action and then push the limits I would consider it foolhardy.
There is a multitude of more modern actions and rifles that are up to that task. There was some chat about some of the 8x58s being re-heat treated and actually hardened through ,allowing them to actually burst unexpectedly without warning. Chambered for any of the popular old black powder cartridges they can be a joy to work with,if you want to use smokeless keep your pressures to black powder levels and you should be fine. For me that is around 29000 CUP or there abouts ( 45-70) factory load level. The light colored rifle is a 50-90 Sharps and the dark one a 38-55.
Cheers!!
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Read the info that is posted on a couple forums and on the Dutchmans site about the 8x58RD, and understand that the loads for the Rollers are not as hot as the loads for the Krag in the same cartridge.
http://dutchman.rebooty.com/8x58rd.html

Keep in mind, these were re-heat treated about the same time that the Mausers were being made from new steel. They were not made from the same stuff.

Lots of good info out there. As long as you are not hell bent on a 7 Rem Mag rolling block, you should be OK.

Cheers
Trev
 
those are ABSOLUTELY GORGEOUS! is just the action originial?-I presume those octagon barrels and stocks are new.Are replacement stocks available-or are they custom made?
 
ratherbefishin said:
those are ABSOLUTELY GORGEOUS! is just the action originial?-I presume those octagon barrels and stocks are new.Are replacement stocks available-or are they custom made?
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Thanks
The actions are original other than I made new main pins to remove all the play and slop,Barrels are made from Douglas blanks,I cut the octagon and then draw filed the finish,Stocks are from Treebone Carving (he has a web site) Buttplate are winchester copies ,supplied by Treebone. Just as a matter of interest there is close to 2000.00 worth of parts and pieces 1000.00 each gun before you start to SMITH any of it. If you can`t do a good deal of the work yourself it will get expensive. Biggest PITA for me was cutting a new extractor from scratch for the 38-55 took close to 6 hrs (Screwed the first one up) Lots of filing and fitting on a tiny part that has to be perfect. Cutting the octagons was time consuming also since my mill has only 26" of travel and the barrels were 36" long. (never mind room for the index head)
 
Randy B said:
Thanks
The actions are original other than I made new main pins to remove all the play and slop,Barrels are made from Douglas blanks,I cut the octagon and then draw filed the finish,Stocks are from Treebone Carving (he has a web site) Buttplate are winchester copies ,supplied by Treebone. Just as a matter of interest there is close to 2000.00 worth of parts and pieces 1000.00 each gun before you start to SMITH any of it. If you can`t do a good deal of the work yourself it will get expensive. Biggest PITA for me was cutting a new extractor from scratch for the 38-55 took close to 6 hrs (Screwed the first one up) Lots of filing and fitting on a tiny part that has to be perfect. Cutting the octagons was time consuming also since my mill has only 26" of travel and the barrels were 36" long. (never mind room for the index head)
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Beautiful work, beautiful rifles, you should be proud of the work you have done on them, for people with less talent or patience, oct. barrels and some other parts, can be purchased.....Ben
 
Thanks Ben
The very first one I put together for a friend of mine had a Green mountain 1+1/8 straight Octagon Again in 50-90 Sharps . It Came as an octagon blank. My barrels have about .100 taper in the 33".
It is hard in this country to find quality components to put together a decent build unless you have deep pockets and are prepared to pay all the guys who want a piece of the action. If I couldn't do the work myself these types of rifles would be out of my price bracket. Quite a bit of hand fitting and tedious work without the jigs and fixtures that no doubt the originals were put together with.
 
I can't do any machine work-the best I can do[and enjoy doing it] is to refinish stocks.If I get one of Tradeex's RB's,I will try and get one in''Very Good''condition and perhaps refinish the stock and just enjoy it as a shooter.I'll have to locate bullets ,brass and find some load data.I know enough not to try and push the limits-and from what I've been able to find-you don't need to.There seems to be some disparity of opinion on what brass is best-and while Bertram seems readily available-some people have problems with it.I'm very new at reloading[got into it so I could shoot my 9,3x57,which I resize from 8x57] so I'm reluctant to experiment
 
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I've got a nice 8x58R picked out at Tradeex,and they have brass,but no dies-where is the best place to get 8x58R dies?is there any problem bringing them in from the states?
 
I see Buffalo has 8x58R Danish Krag dies for about $82-will they work for 8x56r Privi hungarian brass fire formed in a 8x58R ?
 
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I have managed to locate dies for the 8x58R -CHD,in Ohio.[if anyone wants contact information-PM me]I wanted to be assured I could get dies to reload the cartridge before I went ahead and bought the rifle.So-that roadblock is out of the way.I will put in a call to Anthony at Tradeex tomorrow for the rifle and 8x56R Privi brass.I'm not sure if I'm going to go with jacketed bullets or cast,BP or smokeless at this point.It looks like the 12x44 was more for BP and the updated 8x58 was designed for smokeless.Whatever I use-I'm well aware not to try and push it.Got to admit-I do like the old swede-and Husqvarna rifles.They appear to be very finely finished

What I would like to know is-what wood did the Swedes use for their rolling block rifles?From the pictures, it doesn't look like walnut-more like beech.If I did want to restock the rifle-are replacement stocks available in walnut?
 
Pretty sure the Swedes used birch.

Coupla outfits stateside offering walnut. Look at the Treebone Carving site as a start.

Cheers
Trev
 
I note diferent reciever dates on the 8x58-the one I'm looking at Tradeex is 1876-is there any diference between earlier and later conversions from 12x44 to 8x58?
 
If you stick with BLACK POWDER, the strength of the Remingon Rolling Block action is uncertain.

The Belgians tried to blow one up, shortly after they came out. The job was tried at the Proof House in Liege and the rifle in point was a Large Frame long rifle in calibre .50-70-450 US Gov't: 70 grains of Black and a 450-grain lead bullet. The TEST charge was 750 grains of powder, then they filled the barrel to the muzzle with bullets, banging them into place. The full charge was something like 36 inches long.

When they touched it off, it went "BANG!!!". G:

Action still was okay, but they didn't do it again.

With SMOKELESS powder, it is entirely a different situation: you CAN destroy one with smokeless.

Original performance with the .50-70-450USG round was 1260 ft/sec MV for 1488 ft/lbs ME. The original rimfire Swedish cartridge was under this load by about 10%.

Either of these ought to be okay for dispatching rabid Buffalo or crazed Dinosaurs in the 4- or 5-ton class or a bit under. Excellent Deer or Moose round: doesn't have enough power to penetrate all the way through, so all the energy is expended on killing the critter instead of just blowing a hole through it.

I don't want to stand in front of either one.
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ratherbefishin said:
I note diferent reciever dates on the 8x58-the one I'm looking at Tradeex is 1876-is there any diference between earlier and later conversions from 12x44 to 8x58?
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Have you looked at : http://dutchman.rebooty.com/rb.html ? Lots of good info and facts about the Swedish rolling blocks.

I think that they are pretty much all the same up to when they were updated and heat treated though I'm sure there must have been some improvments in the metal. At some point the extractors were changed to a design that rotated on the block pin instead of the straight sliding one that was pulled forward by the block. Not sure if the pin keeper was an update from locking screws or just a variation either.
 
Consider that the metallurgy wasn't much changed in the time these were made.

The new extractor, as well as the new breech block, etc., was made and installed when the actions were converted from the BP cartridges to the 8x58RD. The actions would have been annealed then, so that they could be machined, then they were heat treated again to harden them.

Then they got pounded into the back lot at the storage facility, because about then, the bolt action rifle was pretty much on the scene.

Then many of them got 'sporterized' by the arsenal, and issued out to the gov't forest ranger/ game warden folks, where being a single shot was not a bad thing.

Really, I would not consider that there were any significant changes made in the metallurgy, during the production cycle. They knew what worked, and stuck with it. If there was any changes in the quality of the metals used, I would expect it to have been quite evident to the arsenal, and they would have culled out the batches (presumably the earlier ones, if we are discussing 'improvements'), but they saw fit to update pretty much all across the spectrum of ages of action. This is what would make me think that they were of the opinion that there was no difference to be had from the beginning of the production cycle to the end.

About 1875, they went to the Remington style retainer (one plate, one screw) on the two cross pins. Before that, they had some Remington made actions that had this, and the ones they made themselves had the separate screws. The new breech block got the Mickey Mouse ear style operating lever on it. Not sure on how much they changed the shape of the hammer spur, if at all.

So, from what I saw when digging for info on these, you pretty much choose between styles if you are shopping for a particular look. If you want it to look like a 'old west' Remington, look for a non-updated action. That gets you the curved thumb lever. If you shop carefully, there are some Remington made and marked actions mixed in.
If you want the better extraction, and the new block and hammer, you look at the 8x58 upgraded rifles. If the two individual screws don't fit with the image you want, look at the later actions (1875, 1876, dunno how much later they were made).

I bought an 1872 dated 8x58, sportered version. Pretty happy with it's condition. If you want better pictures of teh guns you are interested in, ask. The folks at TradeEX treated me pretty well and took good clear pictures of the guns I was interested in.

Cheers
Trev
 
Anthony sent me the pictures of #18742,so I ordered it along with some privi 8x56r brass and .323 175 gr bullets.From the pictures, I noticed the brass disk says
21R
B
No.8

not sure what that means
 
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