custom actions

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fatboyz

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Is there really a differance with a custom action like a Barnard, BAT, Stiller etc? Throw the #### sizing out the window please! I understand that smoothness, fit etc could be different, or better, but accuracy wise are they any better than a tuned Remington or Savage? I'm not trying to compare a Neon and Ferrrari here, But can it be truly said that a rifle with a custom action, everything else being equal, will always out shoot a Rem or Savage!
A crappy shooter with a big mouth and deep pockets is just that, a $6500.00 rifle with the best of everything won't necessarilly make him that much better than a great shooter with a mediocre rifle.
When I decided to start this thread Jerry from Mystic Precision came to mind. If a shooter of that skill level uses savage actions there must be something to it, also he's one of the VERY FEW on this forum that supply unbiased, non-tesosterone fueled advice in a friendly, professional manner. Money can't replace skill.
 
fatboyz said:
Is there really a differance with a custom action like a Barnard, BAT, Stiller etc? Throw the #### sizing out the window please! I understand that smoothness, fit etc could be different, or better, but accuracy wise are they any better than a tuned Remington or Savage? I'm not trying to compare a Neon and Ferrrari here, But can it be truly said that a rifle with a custom action, everything else being equal, will always out shoot a Rem or Savage!
A crappy shooter with a big mouth and deep pockets is just that, a $6500.00 rifle with the best of everything won't necessarilly make him that much better than a great shooter with a mediocre rifle.
When I decided to start this thread Jerry from Mystic Precision came to mind. If a shooter of that skill level uses savage actions there must be something to it, also he's one of the VERY FEW on this forum that supply unbiased, non-tesosterone fueled advice in a friendly, professional manner. Money can't replace skill.
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I totally agree 100 per what you saying, there is nothing wrong with savage or rem 700 action, althose rem action need some work to get it to shoot.
 
I too will be curious to see where this thread goes. I use a savage action for my precision shooting and so far so good, not the smoothest action and it has very heavy bolt lift but it'll do for now. If at the end of the day the verdict is that an aftermarket / custom action isn't the be all end all then I'd gladly jump back into a Tikka action ... Very very smooth.
 
I do pretty well the odd time with my trued Rem XR actions. ;)

Only difference between my action and a custom action is the tolerances in the bolt raceway.

Performance for me is on par with any other action made today.

Now a repeater action will never be as stiff as a solid bottom action but how that affects accuracy......I can't personally say.

There must be a reason why the top shooters in the world use solid bottom over repeater actions fit with a follower.
 
I shoot both custom and factory action. Remy for the most part could use some smithing once and awhile you get lucky and pick up a remy that just blows your mind.

For me I like my custom action because I don't have to worry about getting is squared. and by the time you spend the money getting a remy to shoot the price is already on the custom action range(also depends on the smith). Plus it doesn't seem to keep it value unlike custom action. There is also the question of stiffness(that I cannot answer).
 
An action will not be the limiting factor for rifles that fit into the precision forum. It has a very small role in the overall scheme of things (let's see the flames coming)

ALL will be taken to the best levels they need to be to meet the goals of the sport applied.

Big difference between the needs of a tactical, 3 gun, F class, SR BR, and LR hunter.

So first you need to start with the game/task then work backwards to the gear that does the best job.

Ferrari - immediately we think of fast supercars with world beating performance

BUT what if the task is to haul kids and gear for hockey games in far away towns?

Or to reach a mountain lake for a bit of fly fishing?

To often, shooters get hung up on the gear instead of the use. Understand what is behind the 'brand'. What are you actually paying for? and most importantly, what was it designed to do best?

Then be honest about what you actually want from this rifle. Yes, EGO IS a legitimate reason.

When you discuss custom actions, the general product is essentially a low tolerance Rem 700 SA. No more no less.

Whether it is solid or mag fed, really doesn't matter. As long as the FOOTPRINT is the same, the product is the same. Sure you can put this steel and that sizing and the other lug into the mix BUT all it is is a fully blueprinted and tuned Rem action.

Customs have become so popular because most shooters have simply gotten tired of tweaking the generic Rem to reach the desired levels of performance. Ultimately, there is little diff in cost (unless you do the work yourself) and the customs ARE prettier.

So the question really boils down to solid front locking bolt OR floating front locking bolt.

THAT is the only debate left to discuss.....

Jerry
 
I beg to differ on the price point being the same.

Custom actions START at $1000 and go up from there.

You can start with a plain Jane SPS for $600, pay a smith $150 to true it which puts total cost to $750.

You could stop there and have a wonderful platform to screw a custom barrel on, or one could up the ante and order a bolt to fit said action with a tighter tolerance for around the $200 mark. This option would then put the price on par with the low end (price wise) custom actions.

As Jerry mentioned.....a lot (but not all) of the customs are tight tolerance Rem clones. Barnard P is one that I know of that is not but does accept Rem style trigger groups.

The Barnard S model OTOH is a Rem clone.
 
If you don't mind building your custom rifle built with a mass produced action use a rem or savage. Myself, I'd rather have an action that was built precisely, one at a time that the company has a lot of pride in building. That's what you get with a custom action.
 
I have to go on record that I sold my custom actions a decade ago because I could shoot a tuned Rem 700 as good. Simple as that.

IMO, custom actions have that business and cool factor too them. The longer barrel tenon is debatable in some groups whether it gains accuracy. Single shot actions make for better bedding and stiffness. I know benchrest shooters will spend whatever amount it takes to gain any small accuracy increase, so to them anything justifies the mean.

The problem with minimal tolerance benchrest actions or a tight tuned Rem action is that they are vulnerable to any slight debris. No problem for the benchrester as he keeps his rifle clean religiously. For other disciplines this won't be desirable.

I have no bias between Savage, Rem or Custom because I have no shares in any company producing them. I've owned, shot and screwed on barrels on several brands. I'm just an old fart whose been around Remington since the 70's long before Savage became a big game player and happen to have more experience with them. I'm not about to change anytime soon and set in my ways. Like the original 1911 Colt modified or not, works for me.

Custom actions are the pinnacle it seems and for each discipline there seems to be a niche to have one and be like their peers or simple bragging rights.
 
I'm going the other way on this issue. I've had three RPA actions, 2 Quadlock's and a Quadlite. Still have two of them, the Quadlite for a .223 TR rig with irons and the Quadlock in 6mm-250 as an F class rig. Both are great at a 1000 yards, wonderful triggers, solid, dependable and absolutely bulletproof and reasonable resale value...................... BUT, my stone cold stock 6.5 x 55 Tikka 595 sporter and my el cheapo 22-250 single shot Savage again stock both shoot 1/2 MOA or less at 300 meters!! I'm now at the point where I get a lot of enjoyment out of cheaper GOOD gear. Think of all the scopes and other stuff I could of had and enjoyed just for the big bucks I sunk into the custom rigs.

I'm no longer competeing in matches but even if I were I'd definetely go the Savage route. My Tikka only cost me $800 10 years ago I quess the new Master Sporters are a lot more now. When the barrel's gone on mine I'm going to use it for my next custom build not an uber expensive custom action. Maybe being retired with no pay cheque:eek: has warped my thinking:D
 
I think what you can get with a custom action is port preference with any side bolt. I have a short action left bolt right port because I ordered it that way and I understand ATRS is offering that also with their actions. As for accuracy, if you have faith in your gunsmith that he has built you a tack driving Rem700 because he can show you he's lapped the lugs and trued up the action, upgraded the recoil lug from the stamped piece of tin Remington uses and bedded it properly, you will go to the range and prove to yourself that you can compete with the likes of some of the most expensive actions out there. Looking back at some of the guns I have had and the trouble I've gone through because of the type of actions I've spec'd, I would have been WAY further ahead just getting Rick to find me a left bolt left port Remington action and going from there. One thing I do like about a Canadian action manufacturer though is that the service is local which in my opinion, from what I've gone through, is the biggest selling feature for me and will continue to be as long as I shoot bolt guns and whatever else comes out of Canada.
 
WHat I'm putting together so far is that possibly for bench rest shooting the custom may provide the edge. Like many other sports once you get to extremely high competition the differance between first and last is so small every tiny little edge helps. For me right now I don't compete, but really love hitting steel and rocks at 1000 yds (and a bit more) with my Edge and VLP in 223. Maybe if I find a pot of gold on one of my mountain treks I'll look to a custom action for the next build. Until then I'll keep prepping brasss, making noise, and work towards busting rocks at 1 mile!
 
CyaN1de said:
I beg to differ on the price point being the same.

Custom actions START at $1000 and go up from there.

You can start with a plain Jane SPS for $600, pay a smith $150 to true it which puts total cost to $750.

You could stop there and have a wonderful platform to screw a custom barrel on, or one could up the ante and order a bolt to fit said action with a tighter tolerance for around the $200 mark. This option would then put the price on par with the low end (price wise) custom actions.
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This is a good point. To add to this reasoning: The barrel and stock of the SPS can be sold to make even more money back. Depending on plans and inventory, so can the trigger and floor plate.

The problem when 'trued Rem vs custom' comes up is many people get caught adding superficial work that does nothing for accuracy- bolt knobs, fluting, side releases, pinning lugs, random action milling, new bolts, sleeving, etc. When considering all these luxuries a custom starts to look like a good deal. If the plan is to simply have aa accurate, but spartan, action then the price differences between a trued Rem and custom becomes quite large. One has already covered the price of a quailty barrel with the money saved.
 
The Barnard S action is not really a Rem 700 clone; it has the same footprint as the Rem 700, and in the single-shot configuration, has three action screws.

In my opinion; Remington actions in single shot configuration (whether 40X, XR100 or similar) have the advantage of greater stiffness and a larger bearing surface with which to bed/mate with the stock and that cannot be a bad thing.
 
realistically, what is the difference in price between a custom action like a BAT and a modified action such as a remington 700?? I was under the impression that its actually not all that much??

Along the lines of $200-$400 Would that be a fair number?

For that price I think its worth it to me to get exactly what I want, in most cases you get what you pay for.
 
Of course a custom action is more and in some cases quite a bit more. As far as remington actions go I had a guy in the states( who is very well known in benchrest circles) tell me that the older remington actions are much much better than the new ones. Infact he and many top gunsmiths he knows refuse to use any of the newer ones. Unless it was manufactured before a certain date they will refuse to blueprint it. He said they( not always of course) tend to be so far out that they are simply not suitable for benchrest no matter what you do with them.

The top guys in any sport are usually there because they pay attention to DETAIL. The action is just one aspect of this in precision shooting.
 
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Mystic Precision said:
Big difference between the needs of a tactical, 3 gun, F class, SR BR, and LR hunter.

So first you need to start with the game/task then work backwards to the gear that does the best job.

Ferrari - immediately we think of fast supercars with world beating performance

BUT what if the task is to haul kids and gear for hockey games in far away towns?

Or to reach a mountain lake for a bit of fly fishing?

To often, shooters get hung up on the gear instead of the use.
Jerry
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Right on.

Bench rest guns are pretty much "Formula 1" race cars or "Top Fuel Dragsters" of the shooting world. Nobody doubts that these are faster than dirt track racers -- but if your game happens to be running around a dirt track with tight corners -- a top fuel dragster isn't going to win any races for you. By that logic, if you shoot "precision" matches, a bench gun might be a bit of a disadvantage owing to the weight and inability to fire follow-up shots, etc.

I think the "solid" actions of single shot target rifles are more rigid, and that is a good thing for accuracy. (But it's only ONE thing. Drivers win races - NOT cars) My partner in the Law Games uses a savage that is a single shot, solid action. He has to work REALLY hard and fast to get 2 "rapid follow up" shots off in 5 seconds.

I built my latest experiment (6.5x284) on a Remington Long Action specifically so I could get a magazine to feed it. (Accuracy International 5 rd 300 Win Mag magazines hold 6 of my cartridges, and fit into Badger bottom steel) I was questioned by a fellow I really respect about why I would build such a fine instrument on what is essentially a "flimsy sporter action." (He is a Target Rifle guru.)

Well - the reason is that I wanted the rifle to be a better solution to long range shooting than a .308 -- but that doesn't mean I wanted a "Range Queen." It still has to be capable of working in the conditions that I expect of my 308s. I shoot what the DCRA calls "precision" and Law Enforcement Games. And that means out in the rain and dirt, off a bipod and shooting snap, rapid and moving engagements -- from a mag...

I get excellent performance out of the new toy at intermediate and long ranges compared to my 308s. I know that 1000y benchrest guys get better performance from 6.5x284 -- but that's not my game. (Although I've said this before and it's worth repeating - I do consider the BR guys to be my own personal Research and Development Section -- keep up the good work, guys!)
 
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