fake atiques

Very interesting article, I find.

He estimates that 80% of the Jungle Carbines in the US are fakes. Not a great surprise; there are companies still building them commercially out of beat-up Number 4s. I have run into several in this country, so buyers should be aware.

Some very good pointers for examining reworks, especially on old revolvers.

Everyone should read this.
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Interesting article although I wonder at the accuracy of some of his statements. If 80% of jungle carbines in the US are fake, it is probably a result of them banning military imports following the death of Kennedy. I have never had reason to question the authenticity of jungle carbines in this area. I do wonder about the faking of S&W revolvers as opposed to patent infringement by european arms makers. I have 3 foreign knockoffs of the top break double action S&W and I am left with the impression that they are simply patent infringements or in one case, I find myself wondering if a european company bought surplus parts and built guns around them. Could even have been for or by Bannerman

I have read on the ALR forum that faking of early "kentucky" long rifles is extremely common although much of what they are referring to is relengthening shortened barrels and reconverting percussion back to flint or starting with a stock and adding original pieces not from the same maker.

It does make me more than ever convinced to stick with guns with obvious wear and use and to buy guns in poor condition so that I can restore them to working order and then shoot them for my own enjoyment

cheers mooncoon
 
I think Jim is only looking at the "Jungle Carbines" done by Golden State Arms and Navy Arms and not considering the huge numbers of no.5's in the USA. Until GS started with a batch in the 60's and those are easy to spot with the cast flash hider and no bayonet lug (also called the "No.4 Commando rifle) and the ones that Navy did which actually had a cast flash hider and sight with bayonet lug are an attempt to fake or mislead. I personally think that under 10% considering number of originals would be a high estimate on the "Fake Jungle Carbines".
Jim knows his caca on the old stuff but I think he is sucking slough water on this one.
 
Remington - For years, the classic warning has been to watch out for 1890 Single Actions made by cutting the web of the more common 1875 Model. In an interesting reversal, in recent years it has come to light that many of the "suspect" Model 1890’s may have actually been totally legitimate examples of the even more rare Model of 1888. Sorta makes you wonder how many 1888’s have been ruined by "restoring" them to 1875 configuration.

I actually understood that paragraph...:redface:
 
There was (and probably still is) a company that stocks and sells copies of stamps used by various proof houses in Europe. There are a number of Mauser rifles that have been scrubbed and stamped, or having the "correct stamps" added then passed off as a more valuable firearm. One of the surplus arms dealers in the U.S. is suspected of doing this from time to time. So long as they do not alter the serial number it is still legal.

I do have a curious M95 Swedish Mauser that is a genuine Mauser - Model 95 dated as 1900, yet it has the dimensions of a M-38. All numbers match, there are no stamp overs or added marks. The question is - was this gun built in 1900 as a carbine (Rare if it was) or was it a worn and condemned M95 that was arsenal rebuilt (factory through repair), or whether it was a spare M96 action that was built into a carbine after 1938.
I will be checking the proof marks on the barrel on this one very carefully. If built by Mauser in Oberndorf they should have those marks....
 
I recall seeing metal stamps for british proof marks, for sale by one of the black powder companies. They were significantly larger than the original stamps however. It looked to me that they would have been easily distinguishable from the authentic marks

cheers mooncoon
 
I recall seeing metal stamps for british proof marks, for sale by one of the black powder companies. They were significantly larger than the original stamps however. It looked to me that they would have been easily distinguishable from the authentic marks

cheers mooncoon

I believe it was Numrich that had "assorted" proof stamps from Europe a few years ago. They were new and used originals.
These stamps and a dealer who purchased the lot were mentioned in a collectors magazine at the time. Many of the stamps were Oberndorf or from a factory that was licensed by Oberndorf. Some were proof stamps.
 
Very true. It just shows to go ya that the problem is not new by any means.

There is still faking going on today.... LOTS of it, to judge by the number of pristine, new Antiques which show up in various places with buff marks still apparent and dished screw-holes in the frames. But they are all originals, of course. You can tell by the outrageous price tags.

Sorry if I sound like a grump, but it has always been my belief that if I am paying good money for an antique firearm, I am entitled to get more than ONE antique part.

Think I'll stick with my Sniders. They might be genuine and they might be the real rifles that built our country and defended it for many years, but they aren't "worth" faking...... yet.
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Interesting article although I wonder at the accuracy of some of his statements. If 80% of jungle carbines in the US are fake, it is probably a result of them banning military imports following the death of Kennedy. I have never had reason to question the authenticity of jungle carbines in this area. I do wonder about the faking of S&W revolvers as opposed to patent infringement by european arms makers. I have 3 foreign knockoffs of the top break double action S&W and I am left with the impression that they are simply patent infringements or in one case, I find myself wondering if a european company bought surplus parts and built guns around them. Could even have been for or by Bannerman

I have read on the ALR forum that faking of early "kentucky" long rifles is extremely common although much of what they are referring to is relengthening shortened barrels and reconverting percussion back to flint or starting with a stock and adding original pieces not from the same maker.

It does make me more than ever convinced to stick with guns with obvious wear and use and to buy guns in poor condition so that I can restore them to working order and then shoot them for my own enjoyment

cheers mooncoon

Some of the Belgian copies of the S&W #3 were extremely close. I read that Russia gave S&W a contract for many thousands of the #3 Russian model. Russia accepted the first shipment from S&W and gave a revolver to a Belgian company to reproduce. As soon as the much cheaper Belgian version was available to them, the Russians cancelled the remainder of the order with S&W and left them high and dry.

Those "original" Belgian revolvers that were made as exact copies of the S&W #3 are nearly identical to the original S&W #3 Russian model. But there are probably another dozen or more Belgian gunmakers that also made copies of the #3 in varying degrees of accuracy.
 
Smellie.



There is still faking going on today.... LOTS of it, to judge by the number of pristine, new Antiques which show up in various places with buff marks still apparent and dished screw-holes in the frames. But they are all originals, of course. You can tell by the outrageous price tags.

Sorry if I sound like a grump, but it has always been my belief that if I am paying good money for an antique firearm, I am entitled to get more than ONE antique part.

You mean like these?


*** Completely restored COLT 1892 Converted to 38 special *** FOR TRADE
Completely restored COLT 1892 Converted to 38 special



i have 3 of them 4 trade. ALL ARE ANTIQUE WITH LETTERS!!

3" 1897 Duracoat Black
4"1894 Nickel
(there worth 2300-2800 Each.)



I am a collector of antique firearms I do not mind the "consumables" replaced (or repaired) but I would prefer them in original , as issued caliber.
 
I'm just an historian of firearms, not an ANTIQUE dealer.

To me, RESTORED means that the firearm has been completely rebuilt to its ORIGINAL specs.

Considering that the .38 Special cartridge only came out in 1902, I really fail to see how an Antique can possibly be RESTORED to this calibre.... and still be called ORIGINAL.

A rework is a rework is a rework.

I own a rework. It is an 1858 Remington Army revolver, converted to handle the 44/100 Center Fire cartridge in 1868. Right now I am contesting with the Firearms Centre because they think it's a .44-40, a cartridge which was not invented until 5 years AFTER this conversion was done.... and which will not enter the cylinder. Right now it is registered and it will REMAIN registered until I can PROVE the original and correct calibre and can show that it has not been CONVERTED to handle the more modern .44-40 round which you can buy at the sporting-goods shop.

Or is there something that the Firearms Centre and myself are missing here?

It's only their job and I have only been in this for 50 years now, so it is quite likely that we are wrong.
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To me, RESTORED means that the firearm has been completely rebuilt to its ORIGINAL specs.


I own a rework. It is an 1858 Remington Army revolver, converted to handle the 44/100 Center Fire cartridge in 1868.
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I think a number of posters are confusing the legal term antique with the collector's term antique. Legally if a firearm meets certain criteria, it is an antique relative to some aspects of law. A flintlock rifle or shotgun does not even have to be old to be an antique in legal terms

As to the 44/100 are you sure you are not thinking of the 44 Colt. It was used in cartridge conversions while the 44-100 was used in long range single shot rifles. I recognize that you could be referring to the bullet weight but in that case the powder charge is usually included as well. 44 bullets usually run around 200 grains so that explanation does not seem to wash

cheers mooncoon
 
The .44-100 was a long-range rifle cartridge family which came in several flavours: Ballard, Wesson and original Remington "Creedmoor" and possibly a few others not listed in COTW. It was a great, hulking brute, better than 4 inches long and it made Mighty Thunder when aroused from a snooze.

The 44/100 (pronounced "forty-four one hundredths") was the very earliest cartridge in the family which later developed into two separate lines, one for Colt, the other for Smith & Wesson, both of whom were impressed by the utility of the original round. It is quite rare today, but was used in experimental cartridge conversions of some US military arms immediately following the Civil War.

My Remington, being of 1863 manufacture, was one of the guns used in this experiment. In the case of my gun, the rear end of the cylinder was turned off and replaced with a bored plate which now served the dual function of turning the cylinder as well as lengthening it. This made a bored-through cylinder (violating the Rollin White patent) which also was 2 pieces and so not terribly solid. The cylinder had to be removed from the revolver for unloading; stuck cases could be punched out with the end of the original bullet rammer, which was left in its place.

Colt developed their own version of this cartridge in 1871 and used it in the 1872 Open Top model, Smith & Wesson having brought out their own version, which we call the .44 American, a year earlier. But both were developments of the experimental 44/100, the ORIGINAL round from which all the rest are descended and for which my gun is chambered.

As to the original military conversions, they were not awfully popular and quickly were sold off to the men carrying them. My gun has been in Canada since 1876, brought here by Sitting Bull's people after the fight at the Little Big Horn. It was sold to a good and decent RCMP Officer in the late 1950s who sold it to my father several years later. On my father's demise, it became my mother's property and came to me upon her death. I have the registration papers here for it for the last 50 years, all in our family name.

One of these days I will have to make a dozen shells for it, very light loads. One of my best friends (a great-grandson of High Eagle) would like to see it. Be a pity for that to happen and not have half a dozen squib loads available.... and a camera.

But first I want it established as a REAL Antique.

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Smellie got me his Remington so I could show it.
I could not resist the other eye candy in the box.

they are;
1960 new model army (navy arms)
Remington new model army .44 altered to 44/100
colt frontier six shooter - not antique.
and
original town police revolver
a little $3.00 Owlhead (about 1910 or so)

Jan. (thanks Smellie.Your a sweetie)

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But first I want it established as a REAL Antique.

I appreciate the clarification on the 44/100ths it is not a cartridge listed in
Cartridges of the World or perhaps I missed it.

More importantly, there is a legal definition of antique status in canadian law and the guns referred to in the ad quoted meet that criteria. To that extent they are antiques and the many people who have posted guns in the EE as antiques are not being dishonest. The frame or receiver was made before 1898 and in the case of handguns the caliber is not on the "no go" list.

I recognize that most collectors are looking for guns which are 100 % original and at least some of those guns may not have legal antique status because of caliber. At the same time the majority of the customers for guns with antique legal status recognize that the guns have often been modified and often been refinished and upgraded. They are buying the guns because of the reduced legal hassle associated with them

I think the issue has been beaten to death and would suggest that we get back to some other topic of broader interest

cheers mooncoon
 
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