Do you anneal your brass?

[donor]

I just did my 300 win mag with propane torch, low intensity. approx 18-20 seconds per case, in a socket on a drill.

The gray is 1/4'' below shoulder.

Fine?

Unless you anneal the lower half of the case, I guess you cant really over anneal the neck unless you get it to glow red hot or something?

Result sounds like what you did is just fine but 18-20 sec hold on heat sounds weird.I think you might have used low flame.Try adjusting flame until it takes you only 5-7 sec of hold to get the same result.

vviking is right-practice on more common cases.Brass heats up very fast and you should minimize heat exposure of the rest of the case as much as possible.

 

[Kryogen]

First 5 I heated them till they were like this

And like I said the next 45 didnt actually "glow", or maybe juuuuust the tip of the mouth starting to get a bit of color.

But if we look at that picture of the same website, they annealed juuuust to the shoulder.

 

[Andy]

This topic has been grossly overdone on CGN and elsewhere. There are those who insist on laboratory grade equipment and measuring devices, and those who use their fingers, a dark room and a propane torch.

Neither is better than the other, but one is much cheaper.

 

[vviking]

Um, did a batch of 50, and I was more like in the 18-20 seconds, and I even did close to 30 sec for the first 5....

I set the tip of the propane torch on the neck, close to shoulder.

First 5, I stopped as soon as I saw the neck start to glow slightly. Not red, more like starting to glow orange. That brought the color change like 1/2'' below shoulder.

Next 45, I stopped as soon as the visible gray color change with the blue line below it was 1/8 below the shoulder. I dont think I actually saw them "glow" or anything.
Approx 10 seconds after you put them in the fire, the neck turns a bit gray. Then you start to see the bluish line go down the neck 12-13, then a bit to the shoulder 18-20, then I stopped.

How do I know if they are ruined anyway? They will collapse during resize, or not hold the bullets or what? I neck resize only.

You will know a case has been ruined by overheating, when you seat the bullet.
The case will have lost it's ability to grip the bullet, so, no neck tension to hold it securely any more.

Brass 'work hardens' every time it is sized and fired, which is why we anneal in the first place, to relieve the stresses that result from repeatedly moving the metal.
Once overheated, the case will not regain it's ability to be elastic, .... and so it's toss time.

 

[Kryogen]

Ok I cleaned the torch head with ultrasonics for 30 min and tried again. much more intense flame.

7 seconds to anneal 300 win mag.

 

[saskgunowner101]

This topic has been grossly overdone on CGN and elsewhere. There are those who insist on laboratory grade equipment and measuring devices, and those who use their fingers, a dark room and a propane torch.

Neither is better than the other, but one is much cheaper.

Fingers and a torch works well with a bit of practice.

 

[BattleRife]

There are those who insist on laboratory grade equipment and measuring devices, and those who use their fingers, a dark room and a propane torch.

Neither is better than the other, but one is much cheaper.

So, some methods are slow, messy, inconsistent and of questionable effectiveness, while others are fast, neat, reliable and proven, but neither is better than the other?

 

[tranman]

I'm gonna have to try this some time.

 

[Andy]

So, some methods are slow, messy, inconsistent and of questionable effectiveness, while others are fast, neat, reliable and proven, but neither is better than the other?

I know that you think that your method is the "best", but what is shown below is every bit as consistent, every bit as fast, and not "messy" at all. I can't imagine how you could prove that your method is more "reliable" and "proven", except I suppose because you say so.

Five seconds per round for the tiny stuff like 223, more for larger.

This setup acts as a heat sink and protects the base from the flame. There's no need to drop into water - that just adds unnecessary work. Using this method, you can pick up the dropped brass by their bases and not burn your fingers - the base will get very warm, but not near hot enough to soften the brass.

 

[Armafix]

So basicly what you are saying is that sitting in a dark room looking at the flame and case neck, and at the same time watching the watch to stop at 5 sec sharp, gives the same results as annealing using automated machine and temperature indicators? Andy, don't fool yourself, please.

 

[Rory McCanuck]

One Mississippi
Two Mississippi
Three Mississippi
Four Mississippi
Five Mississippi
OWowow that's hot, drop.
Suprisingly consistent. But go ahead, spend $600 if
it makes you feel better.

 

[Kryogen]

The machine is just a gadget to me.... I personally will hand anneal. I dont win comps anyway

 

[Danny Boy]

The purpose of annealing is to soften the neck area where it has been hardened by contraction (neck sizing) and expansion (firing). I am amazed to see the elaborate setup that folks are using.

I typically shoot with a batch of 100 brass. Neck size four times then I will full length resize and trim to the right length. Every eight time or every two FL I will anneal the brass.

I use a torch with my fingers holding the brass. I turn the brass with my fingers until it turns pink/red (5-8 seconds on the neck and shoulder area). Then I drop it in a bucket of water to let it cool down. Any longer than 8 seconds you would feel the heat at your finger tips. I just let them sit on a towel to air dry them afterwards. It takes less than 30-40 minutes to anneal a batch including putting everything away.

The 300WM brass lasted up to 19 rounds before I threw them away. There was nothing wrong with them. I just didn’t want to continue with the old brass.

 

[Andy]

This is another area of reloading that get's overthougth and as a result over engineered. No harm from that, but the results aren't there.

I see people who do every possible procedure on their:

- brass: use only brass from the same lot; primer pocket ream; weigh and sort to 0.01 grs; clean to like new after every use;
- powder: develop loads to 0.01 grs from the same lot of course;
- bullets: the same, weigh to 0.01 grs, seat to 0.01" OAL.

...and so we see pet loads of 42.33 grs of Varget at an OAL of 0.09" off the rifling, producing consistent groups of 0.321" (typically based on measuring the best three shot group they shot that day). Noticeably better than 42.3 grs 10 thou off the lands - right.... Others are much less precise in their reloading and will consistently beat guys like this, if they ever show up at a competition.

With annealing, obviously you can over anneal or under anneal, but even with the most "precise" method there is variation, and even with brass from the same lot, weighed to be the same, it's not all identical. Fortunately that's ok.

The expensive setups are nice and can be fast and consistent, but to suggest that any other method produces crap is not supported by fact (many do it with good results), and will only prevent reloaders from annealing at all.

 

[BattleRife]

Battlerifle, tell us more about your salt bath setup. Looks interesting.

It the basic Lee melting pot filled with potassium nitrate and a homemade case holder. I had a Mastercraft digital multimeter with thermocouple to read the temperature but that has crapped out on me. Stand each case in the holder for about 5 seconds, drop into a bucket of water. It does 1000 cases an hour or more, and offers precision and accuracy that no other method comes close to. whether or not precision and accuracy are a real benefit on the firing line is a very valid question.

It also costs about $100 to get all the equipment together, has significant setup and clean up times, and is messy. Water splashes and salt dribbles everywhere. It's not for everybody, but I think it is a good option for some people.

I know that you think that your method is the "best", but what is shown below is every bit as consistent, every bit as fast, and not "messy" at all. I can't imagine how you could prove that your method is more "reliable" and "proven", except I suppose because you say so.

Actually, I wasn't thinking about my method at all. I know it has drawbacks. I just found it humourous that even though there are several very different methods out there, you would state that none is superior or inferior to any other. Seems very egalitarian, and quite unrealistic.

 

[Andy]

Actually, I wasn't thinking about my method at all. I know it has drawbacks. I just found it humourous that even though there are several very different methods out there, you would state that none is superior or inferior to any other. Seems very egalitarian, and quite unrealistic.

Any of the methods can work if done right. Some are faster, and some are more messy.

Why do people insist on dropping their brass into water? Commercial operations don't do it. The temperature at the casehead will never get very high if done right.

As for the "molten salts method", it can work too, but there are some drawbacks. The Lee melter is not known to be very accurate. Even if set at "7" and not moved, the temperature can fluctuate quite a bit - I know this from casting. Every time you plunge cold brass into it, it cools, until the primitive temperature sensor tells the element to go on, then it over-compensates before it shuts off. Still, it's a method that can work, and if not for the unneccessary dropping in water, might be one of the better ones.

 

[Rory McCanuck]

Why do people insist on dropping their brass into water? Commercial operations don't do it. The temperature at the casehead will never get very high if done right.

Because my containers are "re-purposed" Zip-loc containers.
I don't want them melted any more than they already are.
And if they aren't cooled in water, I will pick them up,
by the hot end.

 

[Kryogen]

I dont anneal with a machine, but then I dont measure powder to .001 grain, I dont weight cases, and I dont sort by batches.....

Still I make very accurate ammo. Maybe I wouldnt make gold medal ammo but I dont really care, I dont shoot good enough anyway.

 

[EC]

No, short and sweet.

 

[BattleRife]

Why do people insist on dropping their brass into water?


...The Lee melter is not known to be very accurate. Even if set at "7" and not moved, the temperature can fluctuate quite a bit

People drop into water for multiple reasons, and many times it is based on ignorance. I would much rather it not be part of my salt bath method, as it is a big part of the "messy" factor, and also means cases need a day or more to dry before they are ready to load. Unfortunately I judge it necessary, mostly because a small amount of salt clings to each case when removed from the pot. The salt is fully water soluble, and after a few minutes submerged the cases are clean as a whistle.

Temperature control really needs to be done externally. The day I made the video, I went to plug the thermocouple into my Mastercraft digital multimeter, and found that it was not working. Otherwise it would have appeared in the video, as it has in some older ones I did. I was actually surprised at how good my Lee pot was with temperature control. Once I got it where I wanted it, it stayed quite stable, less than 10C fluctuation. Once I started annealing, the steady introduction of cold brass lowered the temperature of the bath to about 10-15C below what it was just sitting at steady state.