SMLE Headspace issue

Dead eye Joe

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Hi all
I have "nicely" bubba'ed SMLE sporter.
I'd like to reload for it and hunt with it but cases come out warped about a half inch from the rim of the case.
I bought Steve Redgwell's book and in it he states that setting the barrel back so that the headspace matches SAAMI spec would solve this?
This is a route that I would pursue if it would help has anyone done something like this? Did it help and if so is there a gunsmith you would suggest (Preferably Calgary area) that can and will take on a job like this that you would recomend?

Thanks in advance
 
Friend, you will need a proper Action Wench, a Barrel Vise, a Lathe and a Chamber Reamer to do that job. A gunsmith likely will charge $200 or more to do the work. And you don 't need it.

MOST Lee-Enfields expand their casings right at that spot. It comes from the fact that they were expected to operate faultlessly after being dropped into a shell-crater with 8 feet of mud in the bottom. So they BUILT them that way, and even moreso after the middle of 1916, which is when the decision was taken to build all the rifles with chambers even larger than previously. There was a LOT of bad ammo running about right about then; the Ross was not the ONLY rifle to have troubles..... just the only one that got publicity.

The CAUSE is a Large Chamber, not headspace.

Besides, Headspace has been blamed for far too much. It really is not all that much of an issue if you are shooting RIMMED cartridges.... and the .303 has a rim.

With RIMLESS ammo, it is more of a problem. The Americans are all paranoid that anything more than .003" is dangerous (which it isn't if you know what you are doing). Well, friend, you can have an absolutely PERFECT Lee-Enfield, buy the wrong box of shells..... and have EIGHT TIMES that much headspace OVER TOP of the MAX, just from sloppy SAAMI manufacturers using their own rim specs instead of the proper military specs.

So what does a guy do?

Gather up all your brass and get a handloading outfit, set it up. NECK-SIZE all your brass from that rifle. Now head on down to the local Dollar Store or whatever you have, go to the girls' department and get a blister-pack of Pony-tail Ties. They are little rubber elastic bands, just the right size to fit onto a .303 cartridge, just ahead of the rim.

If you have fresh ammo, you fire it always with one of these little elastics in place. This FIREFORMS your brass to YOUR CHAMBER. You do this on the first re-firing of your old brass, too.

In future, you neck-size your brass only and stick with loads about 2250 ft/sec, no higher. Your brass will last a LOT longer. A good and accurate load with a 180 is the Sierra Pro-Hunter 180 with 37 to 38 grains of IMR-4895. A good load with a 150 is the Hornady Spire Point .312" with 39 to 40 grains of 4064, no higher. With BOTH these loads, you seat to the OAL of a military Mark VII BALL round. It might look funny but it works just fine. These are two of the cheapest .303 bullets around, they are both very accurate and they both have FLAT bases; .303s do not like boat-tailed bullets, as a rule.

If you want to do a LOT of shooting, cheap, get a Lee mould for the .312-185 bullet and get a Lee Sizing Die, which just happens to double as a very good gas-check seater. Then you load 13 grains of Red Dot shotgun powder behind a bullet made of old wheelweights. The result is a mild load which will shoot 2 inches at 100 and is okay for Gophers out to 200 or so. It costs less than TEN cents a shot to make these up and your barrel will last halfway to forever.

Yes, I shoot .303s myself. I generally have 10 or a dozen ready to go at any one time and I am working on another half-dozen right now. I like .303s, as you might have guessed.

Have fun!
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I use a viton O ring on the rim for the first firing, you can get an assortment of them at Cambodian Tire for about $5, one of them will fit just fine - if you have a wobbly AR15 you can use one of the other sizes around the pivot pin to get rid of the wobble without wearing out the pin seats.
 
There usually is a # on the bolt head and that's the way the armourer adjust the headspace using the go/no go gauges. If it is too loose, you use the next higher # and try again, so no machining, no barrel removal, nothing heavy.
 
Funny thing is my No1 has a number on the bolt-head a "1".
Another question does anyone know how to install the rear sight? I slipped it over the barrel but how do I secure it so it stays in place?
 
Your rear site is pinned to hold it in place on the barrel.Getting a longer bolt head will fix your problem my 1917 was doing the same thing that is how i resolved it.
Could we get some pics of the rifle in ? receiver & bolt also barrel full length?



Funny thing is my No1 has a number on the bolt-head a "1".
Another question does anyone know how to install the rear sight? I slipped it over the barrel but how do I secure it so it stays in place?
 
Dead eye Joe

Bolt heads marked with a "S" for spare on the No.1 are much longer than normal and used for correcting headspace and are lapped to the correct size. Reference the 1931 instructions for armourers.

As smellie stated the chamber on the "military" Enfield rifle is larger in diameter and length than the civilian SAAMI standards to make room for the mud of Flanders. If you use a full length resizing die you will be pushing the shoulder back over 1/8 of an inch too far.

Below is a fired case from a 1943 No.4, the amount the case is sticking above the Wilson case gauge is how much longer the military chamber is compared to the much smaller civilian SAAMI chamber.


IMGP6321.jpg


The Prvi Partizan case on the left has a thicker rim, the base diameter is larger and the cases are .010 thicker in the base web area than any case made today compared to the Greek HXP case on the right. I highly recommend the Prvi .303 cases because they are made for heavy duty usage.

privihxp.jpg


If a rubber o-ring is used for fire forming your cases the o-ring will hold the case against the bolt face and prevent case stretching in the base web area. The o-ring will also help center the case in the chamber as it is compressed helping with case alignment and accuracy when forming the cases.

headspacestretch_frame_0001.jpg


IMGP5096.jpg


I use .312 Hornady pistol bullets and reduced loads for forming the cases to the chamber.

IMGP4691.jpg


Once the case is fire formed you neck size only and let the case headspace on the shoulder of the case which holds the case against the bolt face.

fireformed-zeroheadspace.jpg


When civilian commercial SAAMI cases are fired in the larger military chamber case stretching is always a problem for reloaders. Fire forming your cases will greatly aid the reloader for case longevity when reloading.

headspacestretch-1.gif
 
Thanks Bigedp51.
I will be neck sizing only.
And will go with the O-ring/fireform route.
What powder and how many grains of powder do you use to fire form cases?

Would using a rifle bullet at low velocity ie. 2200 fps do the trick too?
 
I'll second the PRVI cases. I have fired remmington, federal and PRVI cartridges out of the same rifle on the same day. Both remmington and federal cases were all visibly distorted after firing. Headspace on that rifle was fine. PRVI's cases didn't distort like the others.
 
Dead eye Joe

I use reduced loads for fire forming because I shoot 50 cases at a time and I have a old ruptured disk injury in my neck and it lets me enjoy shooting more by using these reduced loads. (no pain in the neck) :(

With the rubber o-ring you can fire form your cases with full power reloads or factory loaded ammunition. Again I might shoot reduced loads with the pistol bullets two or three times before loading hotter loads. You can find reduced loads at http://www.hodgdon.com/ and extrapolate loads for H4895 and Trail Boss. I also use SR4759 for reduced loads with the 100 Hornady pistol bullets, see the load below for the 100 grain Speer plinker (.308) I have used loads from 16 to 20 grains with the .312 Hornady without any problems.

303plinker.jpg


The Enfield rifle with military .303 ammunition is rated at 46,000 CUP or 49,000 PSI, "BUT" factory ammunition is loaded to less than 43,000 CUP due to all the older Enfield rifles still being used today. Hand loads with the 150 grain bullet and approximately 37 to 38 grains of H4895 make a good load with longer case life.

NOTE: Any time you load hot over 43,000 CUP you are taking a chance of distorting and warping commercial .303 cases when fired in the longer and fatter military chamber. Also a Redding .303 case forming and trim die can be used a shoulder bump die when your neck sized cases become a tight fit in your chamber. This die will not touch the case body or neck and only push the shoulder back for less cartridge headspace. I also highly recommend the Lee Collet die for neck sizing only for less runout and case longevity.
 
I have done the same test with the same results you have to remember rim thickness can vary that is why i run at .003-.004 head clearance so i change the bolt head to a longer one then all casings visably looked fine.
Your head clearance maybe good but you may still have to tighten it up in order to use any type of ammo.Total head space on mine is .067-.068 that is where i try and keep it for best results and case life.




I'll second the PRVI cases. I have fired remmington, federal and PRVI cartridges out of the same rifle on the same day. Both remmington and federal cases were all visibly distorted after firing. Headspace on that rifle was fine. PRVI's cases didn't distort like the others.
 
Go is .064; SAAMI No Go is .068, Military No Go is .074.
Rim is nominally .060; some cases may be as thin as .055.
Easy to get stacked tolerances that result in excess headspace even if the rifle is in spec.
Excess headspace is primarily a problem if cases are to be handloaded. First firing will create an incipient separation.
I have sorted through a couple of sandbags full of brass fired in gov't. owned No. 4 rifles. Close to 20% had to be culled because of incipient separations.
 
Military spec for the.303 rim was .063" Max., headspace for the Rifle was .064" MIN.

I have seen commercial ammo with rims as thin as .037" (never should have made it out the door).

@tiriaq: you can also get incipient separations from very hard, very thin brass combined with thin rims. Our Liberal-Government-Appointed ammo company used to turn out BAGS of the stuff. When you have a Captive Market, you can put ANYTHING onto the market and expect people to pay for it. Regular cartridge brass is 70/30 Cu/Zn and is annealed several times during manufacture. Some of the stuff on the market at one time was out of spec in composition and ridiculously brittle and hard: NOT a good situation when you want the casing to seal the chamber. Government rifles are at least serviced from time to time; think about running some of this stuff through a rifle which last saw an Armourer in 1917!
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The delta L problem is a condition that occurs regarding certain firearms chambers and their practical incompatibility with ammunition made for the corresponding chambering.

There are also some firearm calibers with problematic headspace listed by C.I.P.
The headspace defined by:
Depth of rim recess
.303 British


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_L_problem

This may sound strange BUT sometimes headspace is governed by the cases you shoot and not the rifle. Meaning commercial cases are NOT made to military standards and do not like being abused in long fat military chambers. I have gotten over 30 reloadings from my Prvi cases with the o-ring fire forming method and not shooting maximum loads.
 
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