AR not going into battery consistently - Help!

[Suputin]

The OAL is a pointless value. As long as the rounds are short enough to fit into the mag the OAL is fine. It certainly wouldn't cause the failure to chamber.

However the headspace would if it were too long.

FWIW the sizing die does not and cannot be adjusted to make the case narrower. The sizing die does and can be adjusted to make the case headspace shorter which is likely your problem.

 

[Melnibonean]

I tried using a brand new P-Mag with the same result, so it pretty much rules out the LAR mags being the problem.

I then removed the upper and BCG and tried dropping the sticking rounds into the chamber manually. They fit in and fell back out when I tipped the upper over perfectly fine, with no sticking or hesitation. That would seem to indicate the brass isn't too "fat" for the chamber, right?

I took some pics of the feed ramps and scratches on the rounds, but I can't posts any pics yet.....

Suputin...if what you're saying is the case, do I need to shorten the headspace then, and if so, what do I need to do to the RCBS resizing die?

EDIT - Nevermind. I went online and found a few articles on how to do this. Will try it and post an update.

 

[just having some fun]

I tried using a brand new P-Mag with the same result, so it pretty much rules out the LAR mags being the problem.

I then removed the upper and BCG and tried dropping the sticking rounds into the chamber manually. They fit in and fell back out when I tipped the upper over perfectly fine, with no sticking or hesitation. That would seem to indicate the brass isn't too "fat" for the chamber, right?

I took some pics of the feed ramps and scratches on the rounds, but I can't posts any pics yet.....

Suputin...if what you're saying is the case, do I need to shorten the headspace then, and if so, what do I need to do to the RCBS resizing die?

EDIT - Nevermind. I went online and found a few articles on how to do this. Will try it and post an update.

When you drop the rounds in the barrel in the upper did you push on them with a finger and then rotate upper to drop rounds?

you could have the correct trim length of brass but have a long body and a short neck.

Sounds like you do not have enough cam over set up on your sizing die

 

[Melnibonean]

When you drop the rounds in the barrel in the upper did you push on them with a finger and then rotate upper to drop rounds?

you could have the correct trim length of brass but have a long body and a short neck.

Sounds like you do not have enough cam over set up on your sizing die

No, I didn't push on them. Should I have?

How do I set up a "cam over" on the die? Sorry for the newbie questions.....I'm new at reloading rifle rounds.

 

[just having some fun]

No, I didn't push on them. Should I have?

How do I set up a "cam over" on the die? Sorry for the newbie questions.....I'm new at reloading rifle rounds.

the cam over will get rid of play in the press
if you set up your press and only touch the shell holder/plate when you get a hard to size brass the brass will not size down to factory spec
so it will be over size

if you do not have enough cam over what you are doing is neck sizing using a full length sizer

cam over is also where the press makes the most force

Copied the below from one of the die/press manufactures

Thread the sizer die into the press until the die touches the shell holder when the ram is at the top of the press stroke. Raise the press handle and turn the die down another one-eigth to one-quarter of a turn and set the large lock ring. If you're using a carbide sizer die, make slight contact with the bottom of the die and the shell holder.

Hope this helps

 

[beltfed]

Your rounds are somehow screwed up.

You indicate that you are using full length dies and a case gauge.
- are they new dies or used?
- are they set up properly? It is possible to set them up so they are essentially neck sizing as mentioned, but also if too much crimp is 'on' you can crush the necks down and deform the case at the shoulder (but then they should not go into the case gauge).
- case gauge - new or used? Make? Depending on how tight it is and how off your rounds are, the case gauge may accept a neck sized round whereas your chamber will not. ( I've once made similar ammo where about 15% of the rounds were not feeding in my colt AR-15 and yet worked fine in my Sig550.
Turns out the die backed out half a turn and the Sig was essentially chamber forming the rounds on feeding). Love those Sigs
- make sure you don't discount your shell plate. Ensure it is adjusted so there is no slop, but not binding either. From loading on a 550 and now a 650, I know this can be a source of grief if not just so.

 

[Melnibonean]

the cam over will get rid of play in the press
if you set up your press and only touch the shell holder/plate when you get a hard to size brass the brass will not size down to factory spec
so it will be over size

if you do not have enough cam over what you are doing is neck sizing using a full length sizer

cam over is also where the press makes the most force

Copied the below from one of the die/press manufactures

Thread the sizer die into the press until the die touches the shell holder when the ram is at the top of the press stroke. Raise the press handle and turn the die down another one-eigth to one-quarter of a turn and set the large lock ring. If you're using a carbide sizer die, make slight contact with the bottom of the die and the shell holder.

Hope this helps

Thanks. I will go back and re-thread it using these instructions.

Your rounds are somehow screwed up.

You indicate that you are using full length dies and a case gauge.
- are they new dies or used?
- are they set up properly? It is possible to set them up so they are essentially neck sizing as mentioned, but also if too much crimp is 'on' you can crush the necks down and deform the case at the shoulder (but then they should not go into the case gauge).
- case gauge - new or used? Make? Depending on how tight it is and how off your rounds are, the case gauge may accept a neck sized round whereas your chamber will not. ( I've once made similar ammo where about 15% of the rounds were not feeding in my colt AR-15 and yet worked fine in my Sig550.
Turns out the die backed out half a turn and the Sig was essentially chamber forming the rounds on feeding). Love those Sigs
- make sure you don't discount your shell plate. Ensure it is adjusted so there is no slop, but not binding either. From loading on a 550 and now a 650, I know this can be a source of grief if not just so.

The dies are brand new. I've only done about 700 rounds or so through them. They were bought directly from Dillon. I also have a brand new RCBS resizer/decapper die that I also bought. I've only done 200 rounds through that one.

The case gauge is also a Dillon, and also bought brand new.

I think you both are on to something with threading the resizer down more. I can't remember off the top of my head how far down I went, but I think I set it up like I do for the pistols (thread down until it touches the plate then back off 1/8 or so). I don't remember threading down another 1/8 to 1/4 like just having some fun mentioned above. I'll do that and let you all know.

 

[deagle2008]

this

when resizing for semiauto firearms make sure the die gets positive contact with the shellholder at the very bottom of the stroke.do not overdo it,just make sure it contacts.set it up without any rounds in your press.try that and post results please.

good job on figuring out the problem. now raise the shellholder and lower the die until the die touches the shellholder, than lower the shellholder and turn the die down quarter of an inch and lock it. run the cases through the die again and test it see if this method works.

Cheers
SS

 

[beltfed]

Take the 1/4 turn recommendation in the die literature with a grain of salt. It may or may not be required and it might just screw the shell plate on a 650…

 

[Gas Can]

You don't usually set the sizing die on a progressive to "cam over" like you would with a single stage. You use a case gauge like you are doing. In the end it might cam over a bit, but you don't want to flex your shell plate excessively.

Do you case gauge your loaded rounds?

Have you gauged the ones that fail?

Try loading only the cases sucsessfully fired out of your gun. If some of your aquired cases were fired out of a loose chamber, esp in the base, you may never be able to size them all the way back to spec. This ususally happens with tight match chambers, not the AR, but its worth a try.

Lastly check the shell plate bolt to make sure its tight enough(but not too tight), and there is no crap in the tool head slots.

GC

 

[Melnibonean]

Well, I've tried everything everyone here has suggested and tonight I managed to get the sticking rounds to chamber properly. If I had to narrow it down, I'd say it was a combination of the sizing die not going down far enough, and probably a wee bit of play in the shell plate.

I began by inserting the sticking rounds into my case gauge upside down (primer side down) and measuring how much was left sticking out of the gauge, then comparing that number to an OEM round. I discovered that my handloaded ones were not dropping down into the gauge as much as the OEM ones (albeit backwards, but still....) and realized that the wider bottom of the round was probably what was preventing the bolt from going into battery properly.

So I gathered about 20 rounds that I knew would not allow the bolt to go into battery, pulled the bullet and powder from them, and ran them through the resizer again, this time making sure the die was threaded DOWN properly (1/4 turn or so after contacting the shellplate) and that the shell plate had as little wobble as possible while allowing it to index normaly.

I then seated another bullet, checked the OAL to make sure it was the same as before I pulled the bullet, and tried rechambering all of them.

All 20 cycled perfectly.

So thanks again to everyone who helped point me in the right direction, and at least this experience will help any other 223 reloader who will have the same issue find his/her answers.

 

[deagle2008]

hey good job again on troubleshooting your problem. so next time you have some problems try to break it down to the smallest point. sometimes the smallest things create big problems. good to know you got everything working. now its time to test the rounds in your ar for full cycling let us know how that goes. also piece of advise: CRIMP all your .223 rounds(FOR SEMI AUTO or for Better Accuracy). if you don't some bullets will go into the case while going up the ramp towards the chamber.

Cheers
ss

Well, I've tried everything everyone here has suggested and tonight I managed to get the sticking rounds to chamber properly. If I had to narrow it down, I'd say it was a combination of the sizing die not going down far enough, and probably a wee bit of play in the shell plate.

I began by inserting the sticking rounds into my case gauge upside down (primer side down) and measuring how much was left sticking out of the gauge, then comparing that number to an OEM round. I discovered that my handloaded ones were not dropping down into the gauge as much as the OEM ones (albeit backwards, but still....) and realized that the wider bottom of the round was probably what was preventing the bolt from going into battery properly.

So I gathered about 20 rounds that I knew would not allow the bolt to go into battery, pulled the bullet and powder from them, and ran them through the resizer again, this time making sure the die was threaded DOWN properly (1/4 turn or so after contacting the shellplate) and that the shell plate had as little wobble as possible while allowing it to index normaly.

I then seated another bullet, checked the OAL to make sure it was the same as before I pulled the bullet, and tried rechambering all of them.

All 20 cycled perfectly.

So thanks again to everyone who helped point me in the right direction, and at least this experience will help any other 223 reloader who will have the same issue find his/her answers.

 

[beltfed]

...and for a crimp die, get a lee factory crimp die.