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OH LORD Smellie please enlighten us!
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I remember a post about the germans doing that with either the k98 or the Gew88 and the result was poor: horrible to hire prone and loading the last 5 rounds were tough due to the force required because the spring was under so much compression
30 round mags WERE made to fit the Lee Enfield conversion known as the Charlton conversion. 10 round mags would also work in the Charlton, so logic suggests that the 30 rounders would work in the Lee Enfield (I believe the New Zealanders used the No 1 MkIII* for the conversion, but I could be wrong on that).
Also, the Lee Enfield series of rifles was made for cavalry use as well as infantry. Too long of a magazine would make the rifle difficult to withdraw from a saddle scabbard, so I suspect that's one reason why the LE's have 10 round mags.
Also, the Lee Enfield series of rifles was made for cavalry use as well as infantry. Too long of a magazine would make the rifle difficult to withdraw from a saddle scabbard, so I suspect that's one reason why the LE's have 10 round mags.
Charltons used modified Bren magazines. Once altered for the Charlton, the magazine will never work in a Bren again.
The feed opening in the bottom of the receiver is not lengthened; the rear of the Bren magazine is cut away. A Lee Enfield magazine could still be used.
New Zealand made Charltons were built up on MLE (Long Lee) rifles. Many were ex target rifles.
Australian Electrolux made Charltons were SMLEs converted into self loading rifles.
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Well, as you have already found out, the things actually WERE made. They were tried out in the Trenches, which was static warfare at ts finest, and found wanting even under those conditions (nice firing-step to work from, sandbagged positions and so forth). The thing added a POUND to the rifle and made shooting from the prone position (preferred in the British Army because it is MORE ACCURATE) nearly impossible. The extra depth made the rifle clumsy for bayonet work and, when you have somebody coming at you with 20-1/2 inches of Seitengewehr 98, you do NOT want to be clumsy.
Besides, to what point? ANY rifle which gets good and hot starts spraying its bullets.... and there are few ways to get a Lee-Enfield HOT faster than a 20-round burst. The rifle has to cool SOME time..... unless you want to set it on fire.
Yes, there were battles in which a lot of ammo was expended very rapidly. Second Ypres in the St. Julien sector comes to mind: 1 Company of Winnipeg Rifles held off 3 advancing German DIVISIONS that morning. They fired the rifles until they were too hot to touch to reload them, changed rifles with a dead man and kept on until THAT one was too hot to touch. And they did it with Rosses, which were/are greased lightning to load and fire but which have only a 5-round mag. At least the poor things had time to cool... a bit. Accuracy was not a great factor in that particular fight; it was described to me by one of the participants as "too close to miss".
Jerry tried the same thing, making up 10- and 20-round magazine EXTENSIONS for the 98 Mauser. The box will fit the Kar 98aZ and the original Gew 98; doubtless it would fit an original Kar98 if you were rich enough to afford one and lucky enough to find one. These were not magazines, they were extensions, using the magazine box already in the rifle and extending it to 15 and 25 rounds respectively.
I have an original German magazine extension, made by Bing of Nuremberg, the toy manufacturer. I have actually tried this. You start with a nice lightweight Karabiner 98aZ and remove the 4 ounces of magazine guts and put them in your pocket. Now you add a Sling (most of a pound) and this great ugly magazine extension (another pound) and you add a 1904-type Pioneer bayonet for another pound and a half. NOW you strip in 15 rounds from Chargers and insert the final 10 by hand (because that spring is getting DAMNED stiff). There: you're ready. Now try running with the thing. When that gets old, try dropping down onto your belly like a reptile and banging off 10 fast AIMED rounds.
Believe me, you will WISH for a nice, reliable Chauchat! A full-wood Garand with all the trimmings is a LIGHTWEIGHT in comparison and, just because the Mauser is heavier, it has no gas action as the Garand has...... so it keeps on kicking you black and blue.
The large-capacity mags which the British made were withdrawn about the same time as Fritz withdrew the magazine extensions, and for the same reason: they were IMPRACTICAL in a Real World situation. A FEW of the German magazines were still in use as late as September of 1918 on the Russian Front, but they had been withdrawn more than a year previously in the West. I got that from a man who was in both places in that time frame.
That said I do know that there was a single Jungle carbine once made up by a fellow named Don Turner in Vancouver, about 45 years ago. Don modded the JC to use a single-piece stock, a Bren Gun magazine (permanent mods to the triggerguard assembly and to the Body of the rifle) and a Bren Bipod. He also had the thing set up to use a scope. It was supposed to be his rifle for SHTF but the S hit Don instead; he is gone now these many years and I have no idea what happened to his JC. It was completely useless, anyway: just imagine a 12-pound Jungle Carbine which can be shot only from a high rest!
But the big mags, both types, were impractical.
Besides, if you have CHARGERS and know how to use the things, BOTH rifles can be loaded faster with the Charges than if you were to switch magazines.
Hope this helps.
Besides, to what point? ANY rifle which gets good and hot starts spraying its bullets.... and there are few ways to get a Lee-Enfield HOT faster than a 20-round burst. The rifle has to cool SOME time..... unless you want to set it on fire.
Yes, there were battles in which a lot of ammo was expended very rapidly. Second Ypres in the St. Julien sector comes to mind: 1 Company of Winnipeg Rifles held off 3 advancing German DIVISIONS that morning. They fired the rifles until they were too hot to touch to reload them, changed rifles with a dead man and kept on until THAT one was too hot to touch. And they did it with Rosses, which were/are greased lightning to load and fire but which have only a 5-round mag. At least the poor things had time to cool... a bit. Accuracy was not a great factor in that particular fight; it was described to me by one of the participants as "too close to miss".
Jerry tried the same thing, making up 10- and 20-round magazine EXTENSIONS for the 98 Mauser. The box will fit the Kar 98aZ and the original Gew 98; doubtless it would fit an original Kar98 if you were rich enough to afford one and lucky enough to find one. These were not magazines, they were extensions, using the magazine box already in the rifle and extending it to 15 and 25 rounds respectively.
I have an original German magazine extension, made by Bing of Nuremberg, the toy manufacturer. I have actually tried this. You start with a nice lightweight Karabiner 98aZ and remove the 4 ounces of magazine guts and put them in your pocket. Now you add a Sling (most of a pound) and this great ugly magazine extension (another pound) and you add a 1904-type Pioneer bayonet for another pound and a half. NOW you strip in 15 rounds from Chargers and insert the final 10 by hand (because that spring is getting DAMNED stiff). There: you're ready. Now try running with the thing. When that gets old, try dropping down onto your belly like a reptile and banging off 10 fast AIMED rounds.
Believe me, you will WISH for a nice, reliable Chauchat! A full-wood Garand with all the trimmings is a LIGHTWEIGHT in comparison and, just because the Mauser is heavier, it has no gas action as the Garand has...... so it keeps on kicking you black and blue.
The large-capacity mags which the British made were withdrawn about the same time as Fritz withdrew the magazine extensions, and for the same reason: they were IMPRACTICAL in a Real World situation. A FEW of the German magazines were still in use as late as September of 1918 on the Russian Front, but they had been withdrawn more than a year previously in the West. I got that from a man who was in both places in that time frame.
That said I do know that there was a single Jungle carbine once made up by a fellow named Don Turner in Vancouver, about 45 years ago. Don modded the JC to use a single-piece stock, a Bren Gun magazine (permanent mods to the triggerguard assembly and to the Body of the rifle) and a Bren Bipod. He also had the thing set up to use a scope. It was supposed to be his rifle for SHTF but the S hit Don instead; he is gone now these many years and I have no idea what happened to his JC. It was completely useless, anyway: just imagine a 12-pound Jungle Carbine which can be shot only from a high rest!
But the big mags, both types, were impractical.
Besides, if you have CHARGERS and know how to use the things, BOTH rifles can be loaded faster with the Charges than if you were to switch magazines.
Hope this helps.
By chargers, I am assuming that everybody means stripper clips.
I love my Enfield #4 Mk2. I have 6 stripper clips and usually load 5 at a time. 10 is no problem, but for the life of me, why would anyone want to load more than 10? The rifle is no nicely balanced with 5 or 10. I shoulders nicely without that annoying magazine sticking out like my M14 or Ruger.
The other thing is the shape of the casings on a 303, they are not straight. Line 10 of them up, the way you are supposed to load them and they for the shape of the magazine. I would think that longer, one would have to start to curve it like a banana clip for a .22 LR.
Nope, 10 works great.
I love my Enfield #4 Mk2. I have 6 stripper clips and usually load 5 at a time. 10 is no problem, but for the life of me, why would anyone want to load more than 10? The rifle is no nicely balanced with 5 or 10. I shoulders nicely without that annoying magazine sticking out like my M14 or Ruger.
The other thing is the shape of the casings on a 303, they are not straight. Line 10 of them up, the way you are supposed to load them and they for the shape of the magazine. I would think that longer, one would have to start to curve it like a banana clip for a .22 LR.
Nope, 10 works great.
- Location
- Alberta, let freedom reign!
...
Last edited:
- Location
- Alberta, let freedom reign!
...
Last edited:
Magazines
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One thing the British Army practiced almost religiously was bolt manipulation. The SMLE with it's 10 round magazine, rear locking lugs and the placement of the bolt handle is an ideal rifle for getting off a large volume of fire.
When the Germans first met up with the British Expeditionary Force, they thought that the British were using Machine Guns. The poorest British Rifleman could get off 15 aimed rounds per minute, and most of the original BEF could keep up 20.
There is also a technique that was taught that increased this volume of fire. It was used for very close targets, when "the Huns were on the wire," as it was shown to me by an old Sergeant-Major who just happened to be an Instructor at the School of Musketry in Hythe, England. He also taught me a lot about shooting, and we practiced a lot on the range with ammunition supplied "courtesy of the Canadian Government."
I think maybe SMELLIE and I are going to have to get together this Spring and take some movies. It would be interesting to see what I could still do at 71 years of age. The last time I tried it was over 15 years ago, on a Figure 11 target at 50 yards, using a SMLE that had a bit of a worn barrel. I would not do it with one that had a good barrel, because 39 rounds in one minute going down a barrel is definitely not the best for it. SMELLIE is right about the heat too, because even the handguards get darned hot.
BTW, this was instigated by a bet during a local Gun Club meeting, and the highest anyone thought you could get off was 20 rounds by switching magazines. The shooting was timed by a stop watch, about 10 members present on one Sunday morning, and video taped. There were 38 hits on the target figure, and one round about 2 inches to the right of the head on the paper.
And, I reloaded with CHARGERS.
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One thing the British Army practiced almost religiously was bolt manipulation. The SMLE with it's 10 round magazine, rear locking lugs and the placement of the bolt handle is an ideal rifle for getting off a large volume of fire.
When the Germans first met up with the British Expeditionary Force, they thought that the British were using Machine Guns. The poorest British Rifleman could get off 15 aimed rounds per minute, and most of the original BEF could keep up 20.
There is also a technique that was taught that increased this volume of fire. It was used for very close targets, when "the Huns were on the wire," as it was shown to me by an old Sergeant-Major who just happened to be an Instructor at the School of Musketry in Hythe, England. He also taught me a lot about shooting, and we practiced a lot on the range with ammunition supplied "courtesy of the Canadian Government."
I think maybe SMELLIE and I are going to have to get together this Spring and take some movies. It would be interesting to see what I could still do at 71 years of age. The last time I tried it was over 15 years ago, on a Figure 11 target at 50 yards, using a SMLE that had a bit of a worn barrel. I would not do it with one that had a good barrel, because 39 rounds in one minute going down a barrel is definitely not the best for it. SMELLIE is right about the heat too, because even the handguards get darned hot.
BTW, this was instigated by a bet during a local Gun Club meeting, and the highest anyone thought you could get off was 20 rounds by switching magazines. The shooting was timed by a stop watch, about 10 members present on one Sunday morning, and video taped. There were 38 hits on the target figure, and one round about 2 inches to the right of the head on the paper.
And, I reloaded with CHARGERS.
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Since DOOK answered this question. Now the real Question is where can we get or fabricate For the pure and simple LCF (look cool factor)
Oh yes small addition i found on the internet where they said they had produced 200 000 of these
i got the link here. looks like a high school smle project but its well done
ht tp://www.slideshare.net/tcattermole/tony-edwards-smle-rifle-final
Oh yes small addition i found on the internet where they said they had produced 200 000 of these
i got the link here. looks like a high school smle project but its well done
ht tp://www.slideshare.net/tcattermole/tony-edwards-smle-rifle-final
