Sigs...What's the big deal if they are not German
- Thread starter RACKMAN
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http://pistol-training.com/articles/trust-no-one-an-insiders-perspective
http://www.firearmstrainingandtactics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1006&p=13082#post13082
ToddG/Todd Louis Green is a former employee of both Sig and Beretta and has a lot of insight on the matter. It isn't really hearsay- Sigs aren't what they used to be. That doesn't make them bad guns, however.
I think you will find that verified statistics are basically non-existent for this kind of thing.
Otherwise, you should have no trouble coming up with verified statistics showing that QC has not declined, right? You must have access to some studies that show that mean rounds between failure have not increased on SIG pistols since manufacturing moved to the US. But there are no verified statistics; this data, if it exists at all, would be extremely carefully protected, for obvious reasons.
So anyone interested in finding out the situation is forced to go to secondary sources, that is: people like Todd Green, who worked for SIG; high level instructors like Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers who see such massive numbers of guns go through their courses that their statistical sample dwarfs most others; armourers for large organizations that issue the SIG. Among those groups, there is, in my experience, a fairly common concern about the quality of SIG pistols since Ron Cohen took over at SIG. The concern is not unanimous; some of these people are still finding the 226 to be a reliable pistol.
But there is no doubt in my mind that a very large number of high-level users are running in to issues, because I hear about it from people like that enough that it's no longer a surprise when I hear it. It's more unusual NOT to hear it from those groups.
Whether that concerns you, or is believable to you, is not something I am personally very likely to worry about. I like to disseminate information to people as much as possible because that is my way of helping the shooting community. But if the information does not interest them, there is not much I can do about that.
exactly....when you hear people who deal with hundreds if not thousands of SIG's, among other brands, and they talk about a noticed decline in quality then I tend to listen. Sure my US SIG has never given me problems yet but when put beside my German SIG there is an obvious difference in quality in looks alone in my mind and when you pay the price for a SIG I expect that.
This is hardly an issue limited to Sigs or guns in general. When things are boiled down to the bottom line (and when isn't it?) and QC, the latter usually takes a hit. This whole phenomena applies to everything from cars to coffee makers. Corporations are more interested in market share and making a dollar than providing the BEST product they can. Globalization in parts manufacture has helped them get the most from every fraction of a cent. It's justified because only a few units will get past that are defective and at that price you can afford to purchase a new whatever every couple of years, right?
As for me, I prefer the quality option rather than quantity. Where's the box we can check for that...?
As for me, I prefer the quality option rather than quantity. Where's the box we can check for that...?
Another interesting comparison is PO costs. When the op gets a chance it would behoove him to find someone who can speak to the difference in Material quality, specs and costs between the German guns and U.S. guns. For me this is what has told the story for many years. Unfortunately its information not easily accessed by the general public.
The op made a good decision on buying a good gun. American Sigs are still pretty good guns. They are not however as good as German Made Guns and never will be until they start using as good as materials for starters Its just that simple.
The op made a good decision on buying a good gun. American Sigs are still pretty good guns. They are not however as good as German Made Guns and never will be until they start using as good as materials for starters Its just that simple.
I wasn't referring to just you, but were you not the one commenting on the fit and finish being poor on Sig US guns????? That's a pretty blanket statement eh? I mean, I'm no expert, I don't have formal training in firearm design or manufacturing, but I have to say the fit and finish on the Sig 1911 I just bought looks fantastic to me....but since I'm no expert I must be imagining that. My point in the end, is basically that there sure is a lot of bashing and blanket statements made on CanadianGunNutz about almost every brand and model that someone posts about...it's a little ridiculous. Also, to those posting names of "experts" and former navy seals and former Sig/GlocK/whoever former employees, I'm sure you could find the same amount of "experts" to say just the opposite about any given firearm. I just think we should work on keeping the bashing and blanket statements to a minimum.
RACKMAN
The fact is that every expert out there has an agenda of some sort. It's how they make their living.
Ask yourself long and hard about whos agenda is better suited to your wellbeing: A professional firearms instructor, or someone who is sponsored to review a product, or works for the company itself.
If you can find an industry professional that recommends new manufacture SIGs over German-made, I'd be really impressed.
All I can say is buy one of each, shoot them equally for the next few years and it'll be clear to you. For you to ask which one is better means that you haven't had extended experience with both. Most people commenting on this thread I imagine have and have a rough idea what they are talking about. When I first got into SIG's I had the same question and Googled for weeks about what to buy. I've owned both now and will choose German over US SIG's anytime.
Here is a bit of an admission. I put down a deposit on a SIG SAUER Scorpion. I sent a photo of it with a description to a friend of mine. He asked about where it was made. I told him about SIG and Sauer. Then it occurred to me. Where was it made? I looked it up and found they are made in the US. I didn't crap my pants or anything but I was a little disappointed. I picked it up and I am really happy with it.
Fit and finish seems good to me but I haven't used a German made SIG Sauer to compare. I can't afford to get in on this current German made P220 or I would. It would be fun to try.
Fit and finish seems good to me but I haven't used a German made SIG Sauer to compare. I can't afford to get in on this current German made P220 or I would. It would be fun to try.
blackacres
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Rackman, as you created this thread and asked for opinions, comments, etc. on US vs German Sigs, which you received from many long term CGN members.
Why do you argue, ignore and dispute a number of very similar comments on this question/issue from members on here that have a lot of knowledge on this topic?
Besides, you even mention above "I mean, I'm no expert, I don't have formal training in firearm design or manufacturing". So perhaps you should listen a bit to those that do! He**, you even dipute and ignore a former Sig executive's (Mr. Green)comments on the very issue your asked input on!!!
I see you purchased a US made Sig 1911, which is a very nice pistol, in fact I think it is one of the better 1911 clones out there.
Your question does not even apply to that pistol, as it was never made in Germany!
So, enjoy your new Sig and be done with it.
I own 8 pistols, two German made Sigs and four German made H&Ks, an early 80's Colt CGNM 1911 and an Isreal made DE (just for fun).
As I mentioned in my earlier post in this thread, I had a chance to purchase two new fully German made/assembled 2XX Sigs for the same price as the US made counterparts.
Knowing that the German guns main parts (frame, slide and barrel) are matched at the start of production and then handfitted by skilled gunsmiths, using all 'in house' made parts, it was an easy decision to purchase these guns instead of a US gun.
HK still manufacturer all of their gun parts in house, all of theit guns, apart from the HK45, which is only assembled in the US using German made parts, are all fully German made.
A HK representative I met recently, joked to me that they are very, very reluctant to trust the US to produce their guns after seeing what happened to Sigs quality!!!
This is not "hearsay", I met the German HK military arms rep. on a flight home and we chatted for about an hour about HK guns when he made the above statement.
Ever thought why even Glock still make all of their guns in Austria and have not opened a plant in the US?
From my working experience (QA Auditor) with the US manufacturing industry, if they can find an easier, cheaper way to make a part, using a material that will just meet specification, they will! And we all know they struggle with QA on a fairly regular basis.
Again, just enjoy your Sig 1911.
Why do you argue, ignore and dispute a number of very similar comments on this question/issue from members on here that have a lot of knowledge on this topic?
Besides, you even mention above "I mean, I'm no expert, I don't have formal training in firearm design or manufacturing". So perhaps you should listen a bit to those that do! He**, you even dipute and ignore a former Sig executive's (Mr. Green)comments on the very issue your asked input on!!!
I see you purchased a US made Sig 1911, which is a very nice pistol, in fact I think it is one of the better 1911 clones out there.
Your question does not even apply to that pistol, as it was never made in Germany!
So, enjoy your new Sig and be done with it.
I own 8 pistols, two German made Sigs and four German made H&Ks, an early 80's Colt CGNM 1911 and an Isreal made DE (just for fun).
As I mentioned in my earlier post in this thread, I had a chance to purchase two new fully German made/assembled 2XX Sigs for the same price as the US made counterparts.
Knowing that the German guns main parts (frame, slide and barrel) are matched at the start of production and then handfitted by skilled gunsmiths, using all 'in house' made parts, it was an easy decision to purchase these guns instead of a US gun.
HK still manufacturer all of their gun parts in house, all of theit guns, apart from the HK45, which is only assembled in the US using German made parts, are all fully German made.
A HK representative I met recently, joked to me that they are very, very reluctant to trust the US to produce their guns after seeing what happened to Sigs quality!!!
This is not "hearsay", I met the German HK military arms rep. on a flight home and we chatted for about an hour about HK guns when he made the above statement.
Ever thought why even Glock still make all of their guns in Austria and have not opened a plant in the US?
From my working experience (QA Auditor) with the US manufacturing industry, if they can find an easier, cheaper way to make a part, using a material that will just meet specification, they will! And we all know they struggle with QA on a fairly regular basis.
Again, just enjoy your Sig 1911.
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This is a good point. It has not been difficult to come up with names of heavy hitters that are advising people to exercise caution on US-built SIGs. If it is in fact true that an equal number of experts would take the opposite line, and say that US SIGs are superior to the German ones, then where are they? I have never heard from them, and I would say that I probably keep my ear closer to the ground than 99% of people on this forum. But that does not mean they are not out there, of course.
There are not that many people playing on the level of guys like Larry Vickers or Ken Hackathorn or Todd Green..right there you are, looking at three of the biggest names from the military, law enforcement, and industry worlds. You could draw up a list of similarly knowledgeable guys, I guess. It wouldn't be all that long. Anyway, the point is that if an equal number of guys take the opposite stance, they should be easy to find and I would like to see it.
I am not in favour of "bashing". I am in favour of information, whether it's kind to my favourite gun or not. I have been pretty open in my criticism of Glock for its generation 4 pistols, despite primarily being a Glock shooter. That is because I don't identify with my Glocks. They're just some machines that I bought to perform a particular task. I feel about them the same way I feel about an air conditioner that never stops working...it's a good investment and I am glad I got it. If someone asks me what air conditioner to buy, I'll tell them the advantages and disadvantages of the brand I bought. If I am a guy who spends all of his time working on air conditioners, then people would be well advised to listen to me.
Even if I tell them their particular brand of air conditioner has had reliability issues. That's even more important to know, because discovering what issues that machine has may help the owner prevent from suddenly finding their air conditioner doesn't work during a heat wave.
What needs to happen is not "an end to bashing and blanket statements". What needs to happen is people need to stop emotionally identifying with their air conditioners, even if they paid a lot of money for them and they're a fancy colour and came from an expensive store.
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