Just how important is DA/SA in action shooting.

Onagoth

Onagoth

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Let's weigh in.

It seems to me that in IPSC, single action trigger pull is critical, especially for decent splits. But I am more interested in general. Multi-gun, IDPA, IPSC, anything practical shooting really.

What are your thoughts?

FYI, I don't seem to have problems with accuracy and double action, I can still hit targets at 35-40m if I slow down....Just wondering if my accuracy could be better.

This weekend I got to handle someone's custom pistol that had a trigger like glass. The gun was beautiful, though I very likely wouldn't want to drop $3k on a handgun.
 
If you choose, you can run a 50M sprint wearing Crocs. It's all what you train with an get used to.

That being said, when there is a clear competitive advantage to well fitted cleats, if you make the choice to run in Crocs, it's your choice.

Personally, I prefer to have a clean crisp 3# pull for most shots, than a relatively mushy 5.5 - 8# pull for every shot.
 
Onagoth said:
Double action only guns (glock, M&P) seem to be more reliable, and will take any ammo.
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not a chance....lOL. I have had HK's that will feed just about anything....I have seen numerous glocks, and XD's jam and mess up. CZ's I have seen malfunction, but for me...my small frame stock2 9mm has been almost as reliable as my HK USP's. I have been running my Tanfoglio 9mm's dirty,..have not cleaned them aside from a bore snake for the last 1500-2000rds. Still working.
 
Yesterday I had a jam on my glock, I think it was the first one in 10k rounds or so.

Will a stock II have the same success? Will it take any ammo or did you have to reload to unusual specs to get it to work reliably? These are genuine questions as I don't know barely anything about the stock II
 
Canuck223 said:
If you choose, you can run a 50M sprint wearing Crocs. It's all what you train with an get used to.

That being said, when there is a clear competitive advantage to well fitted cleats, if you make the choice to run in Crocs, it's your choice.

Personally, I prefer to have a clean crisp 3# pull for most shots, than a relatively mushy 5.5 - 8# pull for every shot.
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that last sentence is a no duh statement, you mean you wouldnt want a worse heavier trigger over a better lighter trigger? shocking!

id prefer a crisp 5# with less travel than a mushy 3# with long travel

the advantage to da/sa is in ipsc not idpa or multi gun since those dont have a minimum trigger pull and you can shoot a glock or m&p with a 2# mostly crisp trigger pull all day. in ipsc the minimum pull screws you on that and the da/sa gets the advantage. also a shorter trigger pull means less chance you screw it up even if its the same weight so another da/sa advantage
 
Onagoth said:
Yesterday I had a jam on my glock, I think it was the first one in 10k rounds or so.

Will a stock II have the same success? Will it take any ammo or did you have to reload to unusual specs to get it to work reliably? These are genuine questions as I don't know barely anything about the stock II
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My stock 2 requires ammo that works in any SAMMI spec 9mm. It will feed ammo that the XD and CZ would not feed.
 
Onagoth said:
Double action only guns (glock, M&P) seem to be more reliable, and will take any ammo.
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"seem" to be more reliable...?

I think any pistol outta the box and un ####ed with is as reliable as any other.
people get into reliability issues when they start screwing around with and tinkering with their gun...

Or... They buy cheap ammo... Or... They make/use crappy reloads.

I've been shooting a stock CZ for a couple of years now... Not ONE malfunction, but... I camber guage all my match ammo.
 
I hear ya.....I've long understood that reliability is near perfect with a STOCK gun and FACTORY ammo.

But seriously, doesn't everyone tinker with their guns? :p

Are you sure you've actually been shooting your CZ? I coulda sworn you were just pointing it and yelling BANG!, cause I never see targets fall over :D
 
Take away the need for a minimum 5# trigger pull first shot in IPSC Production and all you would see in that division would be Glocks and M&P's. IMHO. We certainly are seeing that in IDPA SSP Division with the majority of pistols at most major matches are Glocks & M&P's with 2.5#+ triggers. Most pistols built today are reliable shooters. I think the rules of each game dictate somewhat as to what we think we need to play with.

USPSA isn't dominated by CZ Shadows/85 Combats like you see up here in IPSC Production. No minimum trigger pull requirement for the first shot.

Too, shooters buy on Monday what they see winning on Sunday. With Vogel winning the World Production crown in IPSC last summer with a Glock 17 the Glock fan club has to be loving it.

Take Care

Bob
 
The trigger pull requirement obviously changes things between IPSC and USPSA or IDPA....but I don't think the guns that are winning IDPA are necessarily the guns that everyone would run for other things.

For one, IDPA SSP needs like 39oz, which eliminates a lot of STIs and Tanfoglios and other guns you see in the other sports.
 
maurice said:
not a chance....lOL. I have had HK's that will feed just about anything....I have seen numerous glocks, and XD's jam and mess up. CZ's I have seen malfunction, but for me...my small frame stock2 9mm has been almost as reliable as my HK USP's. I have been running my Tanfoglio 9mm's dirty,..have not cleaned them aside from a bore snake for the last 1500-2000rds. Still working.
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and my stock 2 was far less forgiving with the ogive on many styles of bullets. Canadian BDX worked well;);)

It is plausible that double action is a longer pull then single action requiring a bit more movement which could take an infinitesimally longer time. I remember reading ed mcgivern experiments of hooking a motor up a 38 special and was able a cyclic rate of 3000 rounds a minute or something crazy like that. So as with everything else it is the nut behind the gun that limits the splits.
 
Bob won with a Glock Ben took 2nd with a Beretta but the next 20 guys used mostly Shadows. There is no disadvantage to using a DA/SA setup in either game.
 
Slavex said:
Bob won with a Glock Ben took 2nd with a Beretta but the next 20 guys used mostly Shadows. There is no disadvantage to using a DA/SA setup in either game.
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Rob there was only a handful of DA/SA guns at the IDPA Worlds last fall and USPSA Production is not dominated by DA/SA guns like IPSC is and the primary reason is the 5# trigger pull difference I respectfully submit. I'll give you the top Euros shoot Shadows but the Americans don't seem to, aside from Angus Hobdell who works for CZ and Matt Mink who usually competes with a CZ. I haven't seen Matt compete in IPSC outside the US. Angus does of course but he isn't at quite the level Vogel and Savigny play at. The fact that after Vogel the next 21 shooters were using DA/SA guns seems to make my point.

Matt's correct in saying the 39oz limit does limit some guns but I am not sure which STI's he speaks of. CZ's do qualify for SSP in IDPA and you just don't see them in abundance at major IDPA matches in SSP Division. I can't remember when a DA/SA gun won SSP Division at the US Nationals. It seems to me all three pistol divisions were won by striker fired guns with light single action triggers (Offically double action but we both know they only have one light trigger pull). I haven't followed the winners at USPSA so I can't really comment.

For most of us who are recreational shooters it really doesn't make much difference but for the very top shooters it does. Vogel incidentally doesn't get paid to shoot his Glock so it isn't just a case of sponsored shooters shooting their sponsors products...well in his case anyway.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
Rob there was only a handful of DA/SA guns at the IDPA Worlds last fall and USPSA Production is not dominated by DA/SA guns like IPSC is and the primary reason is the 5# trigger pull difference I respectfully submit. I'll give you the top Euros shoot Shadows but the Americans don't seem to, aside from Angus Hobdell who works for CZ and Matt Mink who usually competes with a CZ. I haven't seen Matt compete in IPSC outside the US. Angus does of course but he isn't at quite the level Vogel and Savigny play at. The fact that after Vogel the next 21 shooters were using DA/SA guns seems to make my point.

Matt's correct in saying the 39oz limit does limit some guns but I am not sure which STI's he speaks of. CZ's do qualify for SSP in IDPA and you just don't see them in abundance at major IDPA matches in SSP Division. I can't remember when a DA/SA gun won SSP Division at the US Nationals. It seems to me all three pistol divisions were won by striker fired guns with light single action triggers (Offically double action but we both know they only have one light trigger pull). I haven't followed the winners at USPSA so I can't really comment.

For most of us who are recreational shooters it really doesn't make much difference but for the very top shooters it does. Vogel incidentally doesn't get paid to shoot his Glock so it isn't just a case of sponsored shooters shooting their sponsors products...well in his case anyway.

Take Care

Bob
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and your point was made...1st place was with a glock...the rest DA/SA tells me that majority of the top shooters use DA/SA
 
Bob is also using a gun more similar to his duty gun than anything else is. The changeover is happening in the USA too, the days of Glock and striker fired guns dominating in USPSA Production division are getting shorter every year. People are rediscovering that there is no penalty in having your first shot DA and subsequent shots a nice light SA.
 
My personal belief is that professionals use single action because it is in the right hands a more accurate gun. Double action to single action guns are for legal defence in self defence guns for law enforement, military and the public. My beretta is no where close to accurate as my Kimber, however with enough training you can use these guns well as shown by the pros. Why limit your shooting time per target with taking up a slow trigger pull on a double action pistol?
 
On of the things I have been debating is a drop in kit. Some of them are legal in USPSA production, IDPA and multigun obviously. They can reduce the trigger pull and eliminate creep.

It probably wouldn't work for IPSC due to the 5 lb double action requirement, but I can use my backup glock for local IPSC matches (I don't shoot many or take it very seriously).

Thoughts on that?
 
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