Help me TroubleShoot... Please (UPDATE ON PAGE 2 WITH PHOTOS)

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Pancake81

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Hey Gang,

I went ahead and purchased a Norc 10.5", and it showed up earlier in the week. Once I received it, I did the following:

1) took her all apart
2) got all the packing cloth out
3) ran Butches Bore Shine through the barrel, and scrubbed the BCG down
4) lubed up the barrel

So, I take it down to the range yesterday and start to sight in my Lucid optic. The way I usually sight in's, 2 rounds at a time starting at 10 yards and working back incrimentally until I reached my desired range. However, I notice more than half the time my rifle is having FTE's (Failure to Extract) on the first round, hense jamming my next live round. Despite this I continue sighting my fifle in, but end up just loading one at a time after a while.

Once I am all sighted in, I load up a few LAR 10 round mags and try to have some fun, but again I continue to get multiple jams like this throughout each mag.

I admit, I am an AR newbie, so I watch a youtube assembly vid on my Iphone, and dismantle and re-assemble my rifle assuming I may have put it together wrong. Same problem...

So, I take apart each mag (they are coupled together via the base plate style) and inspect. They both look fine, so I re-assemble and continue with FTE jams..

Then I google FTE solutions on the net (again via Iphone, still at the range), and I read that my BCG should be soaking wet with lube. So, I pull it apart and lube the snot out of it. I shot about 40-50 rounds after that with only one FTE, so is it safe to assume that my BCG didn't have enough lube and was causing all these FTE's for me?

I read the how to clean and lube your AR sticky when I got home, so I will follow that from now on, but don;'t want to have another range experience like that. I was slightly frustrated to say the least :cool:

What are your thoughts.

Cheers,
PC81
 
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I have the same rifle. First time I took it out I expected all kinds of trouble.

Only issue I had was failing to insert mag properly.

My bolt was lubed pretty well with oil. So I say lack of lube on the bolt carrier.

But this is my first AR and lack the expereince with it. Shot it once so far.
 
I went ahead and purchased a Norc 10.5", and it showed up earlier in the week. Once I received it, I did the following:

1) took her all apart
2) got all the packing cloth out
3) ran Butches Bore Shine through the barrel, and scrubbed the BCG down
4) lubed up the barrel
Click to expand...

If I understand correctly, when you took your rifle to the range the BCG was dry and the barrel was lubed?

If so, that's ass-backwards and most likely your issue.
 
I used wheel bearing grease (what I use for all my guns where applicable) on my bolt carrier and lugs, just a light layer the first time I took my norinco CQ to the range, and I've never had a failure of any type in 500 rounds. The rifle cycled perfectly and ejected brass very consistently too.

Ar platform isn't supposed to run dry. That being said don't over do it with the oil. I use a LIGHT layer of grease where applicable because it stays put in extended range sessions better than oil which burns off / flows away
 
Well, I just pulled it apart and lubed it up with O-Ring oil. Seems like the right stuff to use to me. Not affected by heat, water and friction, and last a hell of a long time. Also slide on a touch of MolySlip grease. Should work like a hot damn. It sure cycles (manually) a lot better than before.

Thanks for the tips
 
Stevo said:
If I understand correctly, when you took your rifle to the range the BCG was dry and the barrel was lubed?

If so, that's ass-backwards and most likely your issue.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I have a habbit of running an oily patch through after I clean. Done it for years on my hunting rifles with no issues. Might have to break the cycle for the black rifle world
 
Go to crappy tire and get yourself some Lucas Xtra heavy duty high temp wheel bearing grease and a small bottle of Mobil1 synthetic oil. I've been running this on my AR for a while now. When you pull that charging handle you will never buy a bottle of "gun oil" ever again.

Gun oil is nothing but a money grab. for 20 bucks you'll have a years + worth of lube for all of your guns. Follow the diagrams in the sticky for lube and grease. Personally I coat the entire surface or the BCG if I plan to do a lot of shooting.. Ppl look at me funny until I say "pull the charging handle". It speaks for itself.
 
How far did you disassmble your rifle? did you field strip your bolt?

It sounds to me like you are missing your extractor buffer/booster/insert, the black rubber nub (Center) in the pic:
BCM20Extractor20Spring20Upgrade-2.jpg



Just humor me and field strip your bolt and see if you are missing this piece. The extractor needs the spring as well as the rubber insert in order to funtion properly. The insert is very small, but you will know if it is absent immediately when you remove the extractor seen here:
images


bolt-assembly_2bd799e9-db36-4f08-87ad-420279bb6d11.gif


BOLT ASSEMBLY
1. Gas Rings
2. Bolt
3. Extractor Pin
4. Ejector Roll Pin
5. Ejector Spring
6. Ejector
7. Extractor
8. Extractor Spring
9. Extractor Spring Insert
Click to expand...


I am not saying this is your issue, it is just a simple overlooked place to start.
 
Thanks C0ntract,

It totally looks like I am missing that piece. Where would one find one. And how/why does that cause my rifle to not extract properly? Cheers,
 
Interesting. My Norc 10.5" has also been FTE-ing quite a lot (tries to feed a new one plus the empty one into the chamber). I guess I'll have to take it apart even farther and look for that part.

Other issue I'm having with it is that a couple times now the mag has gone in too far and jammed up with the BCG, and it's a beeotch to get it apart at that point. If I try to be more gentle wit the mag insertion then the mag will just fall onto the ground.

Not a great experience so far...
 
Update

Okay, so heres my update gang.

Since my original post, I have learned how to properly disassemble/assemble my BCG down to the nitty gritty, clean it, lube it and re-assemble. I did this very thoroughly to see if this would help with my failures.

Well... not so much luck on that front. I went to the range the other day and fired 60 rounds, through both my LAR mags and my original Norinco mag, and couldnt get further than 2 rounds without a terrible jam. So, I decided to just load 1 round in a mag at a time to see what was happening.

I shot about 10 rounds like this and it was 50/50 if it would eject the empty case properly. Out of 10 rounds:

-3 ejected properly (and were flung a good 12 feet away)
-5 failed to be extracted from the barrel
-2 were extracted from the barrel, but not ejected out of the gun

Next, I shot 5 mags with 2 rounds in each, and got this result

-2 mags shot fine (brass was flung 12 feet away)
-2 mags jammed on the first shot, due to the empty brass failing to be extracted from the barrel)
-1 magshot the first round good, but failed to extract the second round

So... As you can imagine I am beggining to get a little irritated by this. Any help anyone can give would be greatly apprectiated. As pictures speak volumes over words, here are some shots.

This is what the brass looks like after it's been ejected
photo3.jpg


This is my failure to extract (live shell being slammed into empty)
photo4.jpg


photo2-1.jpg


This is what the live round that slams into the empy looks like after I clear the jam
photo5.jpg


This is a failure to eject
photo6.jpg


This is what my BCG looks like disassembled (not positiove if I am missing a part?
photo1-2.jpg



Any help appreciated guys
 
maybe i cant tell from the pic, but I dont see the extractor spring insert there,

function check it, manually cycle the action with enough speed to extract cartridges and see if it extracts reliably that way, if it wont, its likely the spring or spring insert, or the jaw lip of the extractory where it grabs the case.
or the ejector/ejector spring is not working (not to be confused with the extractor/spring)

if it does extract when you manually cycle, check the gas tube, is it loose? is it at 12 oclock in relation to the barrel, all the way to the front post sight. also if you can look in the barrel and see the small hole where the gas escapes check if it is blocked.

check if the gas key on the bolt is loose as well, or if it looks like any part of the bolt carrier group is rubbing to hard on any part of the upper.

last thing I can think of to check is with the bolt carrier group assembled, just pull the bolt back and forth to see if its easily sliding between the forward and back position
 
You are missing your insert as I said before, as you said in the post following.

You can get the spikes extractor booster from brownells for a few $$$ and it will make your brass fly.

This is 100% your problem, I can tell from your brass and from the constant type ATE malfunctions.

I can tell this is the missing #9 because you are getting constant type ATE malfunctions when running more than one round in the magazine, but having some successful extractions when shooting one round at a time... this is because there is not enough tension on the extractor (which is the boosters job), so when the round in the mag applies drag to the round being extracted the extractor is losing its hold causing the empty to move upwards and not out. This is because the mag spring is applying upward presure via the live round to the the empty failing to extract. The result is the empty floating backwards with the intial weak hold of the extractor (following the natural path of the BCG), then being forced up ON TOP of the BCG by the live round, and the live round gets cought in the ramp neck because its bottlenecked by the semi extracted empty. This is why you have the dents on the live round near the neck, but not on the extracting round.

If this was a gas issue, (leak, port not large enough, or etc) your gun would fail to lock back on the last round almost all the time, even when chambering one round at a time. Also you rarely get type ATE malfunctions when short stroking, because if the BCG is able to move back far enough to latch onto a live round, it has already moved past the point of full extraction ( live round is longer than and an empty).

Your issue is because you are missing a $.03 part.

I can't like to non supporting dealers, but if you google "spikes AR extractor booster" you can buy an entire kit for your AR that costs less than a tims coffee.

Cheers.
 
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