Just how important is DA/SA in action shooting.

[Canuck44]

and your point was made...1st place was with a glock...the rest DA/SA tells me that majority of the top shooters use DA/SA

Yes in IPSC where the first trigger pull is required to be 5#'s. The top shooters in IDPA all use striker fired guns. At the IDPA World shoot in Florida last fall there were only a handful of DA/SA guns. The polymer guns are lighter, can be driven faster and with trigger jobs and parts replacement have very light trigger pulls. My M&P PRO is 2.75's, about where my Shadow S/A gun is at.

As I said earlier for most recreational shooters any stock pistol will do in either sport and some can become very good but IMHO the rules of the game do to some extent dictate what pistols are favoured over others. Too, there is a certain amount of follow what is winning involved.

Take Care

Bob

 

[raks]

On of the things I have been debating is a drop in kit.

Unless the trigger 'kit' is produced by the gun manufacturer it will not be allowed in Production division - even if the trigger weight remains above 5#. Glocks and M&P's with trigger kits can shoot in Standard or Open regardless of trigger weight.

 

[Onagoth]

Unless the trigger 'kit' is produced by the gun manufacturer it will not be allowed in Production division - even if the trigger weight remains above 5#. Glocks and M&P's with trigger kits can shoot in Standard or Open regardless of trigger weight.

I think its all OEM parts, but I am not sure its made by glock. Not a big deal for IPSC as I can just use my other 'stock' glock.

 

[Canuck44]

Bob is also using a gun more similar to his duty gun than anything else is. The changeover is happening in the USA too, the days of Glock and striker fired guns dominating in USPSA Production division are getting shorter every year. People are rediscovering that there is no penalty in having your first shot DA and subsequent shots a nice light SA.

Vogel uses a Glock 34 when he shoots USPSA Production and IDPA SSP Division. As long as he does and keeps winning you won't see a major movement IMHO to DA/SA guns in USPSA.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Slavex]

He didn't win the nationals Ben did with a DA/SA and people noticed.

 

[Freedom Ventures]

You can find any reason in the world to try to argue for another production gun,
(ancient results, other countries, pros...)
but for IPSC currently in Canada; the data speaks for itself.

Canadian Team - World Shoot 2011 - 3 CZ and a Tanfoglio, Team Manager - Tanfoglio.

Top 8 Ranked Canadians:

1 CZ
2 CZ
3 CZ
4 Tanfoglio
5 Tanfoglio
6 Tanfoglio
7 CZ
8 CZ

http://www.ipsc-canada.org/2011production.pdf

Any other facts are spurious. We're shooting IPSC in Canada and none of us (that top 8 included) are making a living shooting competitions.

Maybe some other smaller shooting sport favors a different gun;
all I know is IPSC - which is the largest action shooting sport in the country.

 

[raks]

I think its all OEM parts, but I am not sure its made by glock. Not a big deal for IPSC as I can just use my other 'stock' glock.

I don`t think you understand the meaning of OEM/OFM.

 

[Onagoth]

I don`t think you understand the meaning of OEM/OFM.

I'm quite certain I do, though I'm not an expert on ipsc rules. This 'kit' I was mentioning is just factory glock parts that have been polished or chromed, along with different springs. Its approved for uspsa production, if that matters.

This argument is moot though, cause even if it is OEM, the trigger pull will be far less than 5 lbs for ipsc production

 

[Canuck44]

You can find any reason in the world to try to argue for another production gun,
(ancient results, other countries, pros...)
but for IPSC currently in Canada; the data speaks for itself.

Canadian Team - World Shoot 2011 - 3 CZ and a Tanfoglio, Team Manager - Tanfoglio.

Top 8 Ranked Canadians:

1 CZ
2 CZ
3 CZ
4 Tanfoglio
5 Tanfoglio
6 Tanfoglio
7 CZ
8 CZ

http://www.ipsc-canada.org/2011production.pdf

Any other facts are spurious. We're shooting IPSC in Canada and none of us (that top 8 included) are making a living shooting competitions.

Maybe some other smaller shooting sport favors a different gun;
all I know is IPSC - which is the largest action shooting sport in the country.

Lets see IPSC Canada with 2200 shooters has a Division dominated by DA/SA guns, USPSA with approx 19,000 shooter and has a similar Division not dominated by DA/SA guns and IDPA with approx 20,000 shooters with a similar Division not dominated by DA/SA guns. I guess the smaller sport maybe on to something the other two haven't yet discovered....or the rules are different.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Slavex]

It's changing in the USA in Production Bob, in a big way, Glock is not the powerhouse it once was. Also lets not forget that the most popular gun in Production Division, world wide, is the Shadow, which without modifications isn't even legal in IDPA in the division it should be in. I suspect that may have a small amount to do with the popularity.

 

[mechanik]

It's mostly down to preference and training. Not that it will fix anything and everything, but if you train enough with any trigger, you can overcome a lot.

That being said, I do prefer the match trigger on my HK USPs (Custom Sport 9mm and also a .45 Tactical) as on those long shots I can take up the slack and know exactly when it's going to break. I have a standard .40 USP as well with the standard trigger and although I have a lot of trigger time with it as well, it's a harder pull and I never seem to feel as confident as to when it's going to break.

+1 to the comment about the HKs feeding anything and not needing to be cleaned as much. I've probably gone 2000 rounds or maybe even more through the 9mm without cleaning. Never had it fail to cycle. The one time that I did decide "OK this is too dirty, I have to clean it" was because the barrel finally got dirty enough that the point of impact was off, not because it was failing to cycle or anything. Only time I've had FTFs was when shooting lead, and that is no surprise.

 

[Canuck44]

It's changing in the USA in Production Bob, in a big way, Glock is not the powerhouse it once was. Also lets not forget that the most popular gun in Production Division, world wide, is the Shadow, which without modifications isn't even legal in IDPA in the division it should be in. I suspect that may have a small amount to do with the popularity.

Rob you are right the Shadow is overweight but can be made to make weight. The CZ75B and 85 Combart both make weight with ease and you don't see many of them at many IDPA matches either. As stated earlier there were only a handful of DA/SA guns of all types at the IDPA World Tournament last fall. The Italians brought their Tanfoglios Sean. The Shadow know doubt is an excellent gun, as are most DA/SA guns, but in our sport for SSP Division they do start with a long heavier DA pull than the striker fired pistols.

ESP Division, where you would think you would see more of them as DA/SA can be started hammer back they aren't in abundance either as they are up against 1911 single and double stack guns along with the striker fired makes.

Personally I prefer the CZ 85 Combat/Shadow for ESP Division for their accuracy and I can compete quite well within my Classification with either. The new 75 Shadow is on my buy list right now. Without a FLDC it makes weight and comes with an outstanding tuned trigger. The pull is light but still long with an abundance of pre-travel most of which can be overcome with practice.

For most I am not sure it makes much difference what you shoot in any of the three sports you shoot. With practice all will likely shoot better than the most competitors can wring out of them anyway. The object of all our sports for the shooter to have fun and enjoy themselves and hopefully improve their handgun shooting skills. If the sole object is only to win then most will be disappointed.

I should add our top shooter at our club reached SSP Expert Level shooting the Classifier using a stock 85Combat. The young lad has been shooting for about five months.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Freedom Ventures]

Lets see IPSC Canada with 2200 shooters has a Division dominated by DA/SA guns, USPSA with approx 19,000 shooter and has a similar Division not dominated by DA/SA guns and IDPA with approx 20,000 shooters with a similar Division not dominated by DA/SA guns. I guess the smaller sport maybe on to something the other two haven't yet discovered....or the rules are different.

Take Care

Bob

Guess you missed these parts, Bob...

in Canada; the data speaks for itself.

and

We're shooting IPSC in Canada and none of us (that top 8 included) are making a living shooting competitions.

and

IPSC - which is the largest action shooting sport in the country.(CANADA)

To elaborate, In Canada, USPSA matches are minimal, IDPA (in Canada!) is not the big game, and Multigun is even smaller. We don't have pros who shoot 2000 rounds a day becoming experts on the gun they're being paid to shoot and we don't have Grandbaggers who shot classifiers a million times so they can tell the world they are Grandmasters (and then shoot 80% at a major match).

What we have is average, working people who aren't cops & have limited time & funding - who are choosing a firearm that will immedately offer advantages they can use.

For the best shooters in this country, they're choosing CZ pattern firearms. (Tanfoglio and CZ)

Anyone can try to re-invent the wheel, but they're just wasting thier time.

 

[Madness]

and just to stir the pot JJ went and signed with Caracal and Glock signed KC, Vogel gets the shaft again :-(

 

[iouri]

Double action only guns (glock, M&P) seem to be more reliable, and will take any ammo.

M&P is not really a double action, it's more like single-action using striker.
Its trigger can be easily made to 2# and would be comparable to most expensive guns, doing so will probably shorten trigger's life.

 

[Onagoth]

M&P is not really a double action, it's more like single-action using striker.
Its trigger can be easily made to 2# and would be comparable to most expensive guns, doing so will probably shorten trigger's life.

Actually it is....its a double action only striker fired gun the same as a glock.

Lightening the trigger pull might negate some of this, but it will always be double action only. Glock triggers can be lightened to 2.5lbs as well, perhaps even lighter.

I don't see how this would shorten the triggers life, the most likely outcome to me on a striker fired gun with a low pull weight is light strikes.

 

[Slavex]

The Glock is more double action than the M&P, the striker moves back very very slightly on the trigger press. With the M&P it moves even less as the sear cams down. To call them double action is really a misnomer as both would fire if the strikers simply released from the position they are in after the slide reciprocates. Moving a ****'s hair doesn't equal DA in my books.

 

[cbabes]

Great thread guys! Goes good with my morning coffee.

One point I would like to add is that since IDPA has at most 18 rounds per stage a CZ Shadow would show its advantage even more in IPSC as a lot more rounds go down range. The sweet S/A pull will come into play more often.

I don't need another gun right now but am seriously considering the tuned CZ Shadow that CRAFM is selling.

 

[PH Racing]

Bah, buy an STI Spartan for the same price as a Shadow and shoot SS. Single action only and if you want a 1.5# trigger you can do it, add a magwell and you're set. Why bother with a DA pull when you don't have to

 

[Flexmoney]

Bah, buy an STI Spartan for the same price as a Shadow and shoot SS. Single action only and if you want a 1.5# trigger you can do it, add a magwell and you're set. Why bother with a DA pull when you don't have to

Yeah, wasn't that what the opening poster was asking about? He mentioned a custom gun in single action.