- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
.338 Win Mag vs .45-70
- Thread starter philthygeezer
- Start date
Takujualuk
CGN Regular
- Location
- Whitehorse, Yukon
19th century vs 20th....not a hard choice for me.
I have some experience with ballistic equivalents in a 450 Marlin and two 358 Norma's. Have taken game with both and the Norma is far more versatile. It also hits harder. There is something to be said for the shocking power of velocity and 338/358 have that while the 450/45-70 don't.
I have played around with the hardcast bullets in the 45 and they do have surprising penetration. They also have a lack of wound channel no matter what the nose shape is. Wet newsprint studies sealed the deal for me...no way would I use hard-cast bullets on game. Drilling a caliber diameter hole through three moose is useful for what reason?
With expanding bullets the medium bores like the 338 or 358 are impressive. I sometimes shoot in a gravel pit that has a slough with mud banks. The impact craters of a 358 Norma with 250 bullets are very impressive. The 450 even loaded to the max are much less wide. This mirrors results I have found on game. The 338 will also be at a velocity range where you still have expansion to 300-500 yards. The 45-70 will start running into trouble at 150 or so with many bullets, and it gets hard to hit past 200 yards due to trajectory limitations.
It's been said that with 45 caliber bullets you won't need expansion. Looking at wound channels in wet newsprint and game, I think expansion is always helpful and with low velocity impacts your wound channels start to be not much greater than bullet diameter. At ranges to 100 yards the 45-70 if heavily hand-loaded has enough speed to have some shocking power, but the 338 will have more. Factory loaded to SAMMI specs and the 45-70 is in the 30-30 class. There is a reason that shooters abandoned cartridges like the 45-70 at the turn of the last century.
Bear Defense at 10 yards....With Partitions or X bullets I'd take the 338
Caribou at 350 yards....338
Moose at 10-300 yards ....338
Ease of packing.....Guide gun in 45-70, the short-flat package is hard to beat..but I'd use top handloads preferably with the old 300 Nosler partitions. That bullet at 2200fps or more hits hard, penetrates well and was a great projectile. Portability is the only reason I still have my guide gun.
The 45-70 is a niche cartridge. The 338 can do everything it can and much more besides.
I have some experience with ballistic equivalents in a 450 Marlin and two 358 Norma's. Have taken game with both and the Norma is far more versatile. It also hits harder. There is something to be said for the shocking power of velocity and 338/358 have that while the 450/45-70 don't.
I have played around with the hardcast bullets in the 45 and they do have surprising penetration. They also have a lack of wound channel no matter what the nose shape is. Wet newsprint studies sealed the deal for me...no way would I use hard-cast bullets on game. Drilling a caliber diameter hole through three moose is useful for what reason?
With expanding bullets the medium bores like the 338 or 358 are impressive. I sometimes shoot in a gravel pit that has a slough with mud banks. The impact craters of a 358 Norma with 250 bullets are very impressive. The 450 even loaded to the max are much less wide. This mirrors results I have found on game. The 338 will also be at a velocity range where you still have expansion to 300-500 yards. The 45-70 will start running into trouble at 150 or so with many bullets, and it gets hard to hit past 200 yards due to trajectory limitations.
It's been said that with 45 caliber bullets you won't need expansion. Looking at wound channels in wet newsprint and game, I think expansion is always helpful and with low velocity impacts your wound channels start to be not much greater than bullet diameter. At ranges to 100 yards the 45-70 if heavily hand-loaded has enough speed to have some shocking power, but the 338 will have more. Factory loaded to SAMMI specs and the 45-70 is in the 30-30 class. There is a reason that shooters abandoned cartridges like the 45-70 at the turn of the last century.
Bear Defense at 10 yards....With Partitions or X bullets I'd take the 338
Caribou at 350 yards....338
Moose at 10-300 yards ....338
Ease of packing.....Guide gun in 45-70, the short-flat package is hard to beat..but I'd use top handloads preferably with the old 300 Nosler partitions. That bullet at 2200fps or more hits hard, penetrates well and was a great projectile. Portability is the only reason I still have my guide gun.
The 45-70 is a niche cartridge. The 338 can do everything it can and much more besides.
BC Bigbore
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- BC's Peace Country
Had both and ended up replacing my GG with a Ruger .338Mag. The .338 is way more versatile. For close range defense, a short barreled 12g pump stoked with slugs is my tool of choice.
I'd go for a .375 Ruger Alaskan.
Agreed.....The one caliber that does it all for me in Northern B.C.
I think that 450 Marlin is a better solution than 45-70 esp. if you do not reload. The factory 450 Marlin Hornady loads have hot-loaded 45-70 energy and the leverevolution one even shoots fairly straight.
And the best part is the 450 Marlin chambered 20" barrel takedown BLR - a nice gun and you can't beat it for portability, weight, power etc.
westcoaster
CGN Regular
- Location
- Central BC
Huh, this is a different one usually it's 300wm vs 300rum or 308 vs 3006, this is about two pretty different crtitters. I think Takajualuk summed it pretty well but if you have the disposable income to have a special purpose firearm for occasional use as an insurance package at close range then fill yout boots. After all this is about wants not needs.
I've got a 4570 Marlin (it was given to me) and it is a pleasure to pack about. As well, out to about 100 yards this thing is pretty accurate. I'm not sure I'd try to shoot it past 100 yards though with that rainbow like trajectory.
The handling thing is pretty subjective. I personally don't like short rifles, I don't find that they lead well, they are noisy, and I've never found an extra 2" to 4" of barrel a detriment in thick brush. But if you are one of those folks who like the way short barreled rifles handle then maybe it would be good for you.
I would go with a 24" tubed CRF bolt in 338wm, a FN Browning Safari would be sweet or the new Winchester Alaskan which comes with iron sights. Ultimately you should borrow one those sawed off 4570's and go to the range and see how that works for you, you may like it.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
This thread is light on the .375's, there is little on this planet 300 grains at 2,700fps can't fix. Even less 350 grains at 2,500 can't. It also delivers that 350gr pill to 300 yards a foot flatter and with twice the energy on arrival as a hot Marlin loaded .45-70 if you ever get a reachier shot on the bull of a lifetime.
.338 trumps .45-70, for sure, but .375 is better than either. .338's no slouch though, don't get me wrong, fantastic, strong cartridge.
.338 trumps .45-70, for sure, but .375 is better than either. .338's no slouch though, don't get me wrong, fantastic, strong cartridge.
I have used both,My 338 Model 70 with a HS Stock is my favorite rifle by far I have a Zieus 3.5x10x44 on it.
But for a rifle with stopping power at close range and to pack around it would be my 45/70 guide gun hands down.
Loaded with a 400gr or up it will stop anything.I shoot 420 gr hardcast at about 1800-1900 fps,recoil is harsh but will stop anything.
But for a rifle with stopping power at close range and to pack around it would be my 45/70 guide gun hands down.
Loaded with a 400gr or up it will stop anything.I shoot 420 gr hardcast at about 1800-1900 fps,recoil is harsh but will stop anything.
Oh man I am feeling sick to my stomach having to admit this but I am going to have to agree with Gatehouse = for the average guy that is not recoil hardened a Ruger Alaskan in 375 Ruger would be the way to go.
Of the two OP choices my answer would be depends on what you are planning on doing with it.
My Marlin 1895GS stays in camp when shots are going to be over 150 - 200 yards this is why I put together my 21" Rem 700 LSS in 375RUM during hunting season when I remove my backup ghost ring sight and install a scope I can reach out to 500 yards = best of both worlds.
I wouldn't hesitate to do the same with a 338...
Of the two OP choices my answer would be depends on what you are planning on doing with it.
My Marlin 1895GS stays in camp when shots are going to be over 150 - 200 yards this is why I put together my 21" Rem 700 LSS in 375RUM during hunting season when I remove my backup ghost ring sight and install a scope I can reach out to 500 yards = best of both worlds.
I wouldn't hesitate to do the same with a 338...
I'm thinking we are needing some clarification on application here. I took walkabout to mean non-hunting hiking. This would mean any shooting would be in a toe to toe scenario, with something very bitey. Down range energy and trajectory are thus meaningless, frontal diameter, muzzle energy and point blank penetration mean everything. Speed of action could also mean winning or losing this showdown, so if this be the intended purpose the 45-70 is far and away the better choice of the 2 choices given by the OP. There is something about that large flat meplat of the 45-70 that tends to take the fight and bite out of bears very quickly.
And let me say, before somebody chimes in with "it doesn't matter which, if you place the first shot well", this scenario doesn't usually allow for accurate first shot placement. You may well have to shoot at a rapidly approaching target through willows, buckbrush or thick stands of small poplar as this is generally where these encounters take place. You are almost never in danger out in the open with lots of visibility, you have to inadvertantly invade the bears personal space as a rule before there is a confrontation that has to be settled with a loud bang or two.
Having been in this position a time or 2 (never had to shoot as they were bluffing), I would want to be carrying the 45-70 with handloaded 400-500 gn hard cast bullets with a large flat meplat, or a 500 gn round nose jacketed intended for the .458.
Allow me to paint you a picture, and then you can decide which rifle you think is more suited.
You are climbing up a mountain to photograph some Dall sheep up in an open basin. You're fighting your way across a wet bench thick with 8 foot high red willows when from about 20 yds downwind you hear a WOOFFF. Then a growl and then a sound like someone hitting two fir 2X4s together at about 1 second intervals and it is getting closer very fast. You can hear the willows moving and the dead ones snapping but can't quite get a fix on it. You realize you can't see 5 yds and there is absolutely nowhere to go and not a tree within a mile. You scream a few profanities as loud as you can at the incoming noise and fire a shot in the general direction of the sound and reload. You're staring intently into the willows where the sound had been approaching, you can see the whisps of gunsmoke amongst the willows and smell it in the damp heavy air........SILENCE!!!
This has all taken place in 4 seconds.
Which rifle and caliber would you rather be holding at this point?
And let me say, before somebody chimes in with "it doesn't matter which, if you place the first shot well", this scenario doesn't usually allow for accurate first shot placement. You may well have to shoot at a rapidly approaching target through willows, buckbrush or thick stands of small poplar as this is generally where these encounters take place. You are almost never in danger out in the open with lots of visibility, you have to inadvertantly invade the bears personal space as a rule before there is a confrontation that has to be settled with a loud bang or two.
Having been in this position a time or 2 (never had to shoot as they were bluffing), I would want to be carrying the 45-70 with handloaded 400-500 gn hard cast bullets with a large flat meplat, or a 500 gn round nose jacketed intended for the .458.
Allow me to paint you a picture, and then you can decide which rifle you think is more suited.
You are climbing up a mountain to photograph some Dall sheep up in an open basin. You're fighting your way across a wet bench thick with 8 foot high red willows when from about 20 yds downwind you hear a WOOFFF. Then a growl and then a sound like someone hitting two fir 2X4s together at about 1 second intervals and it is getting closer very fast. You can hear the willows moving and the dead ones snapping but can't quite get a fix on it. You realize you can't see 5 yds and there is absolutely nowhere to go and not a tree within a mile. You scream a few profanities as loud as you can at the incoming noise and fire a shot in the general direction of the sound and reload. You're staring intently into the willows where the sound had been approaching, you can see the whisps of gunsmoke amongst the willows and smell it in the damp heavy air........SILENCE!!!
This has all taken place in 4 seconds.
Which rifle and caliber would you rather be holding at this point?
westcoaster
CGN Regular
- Location
- Central BC
Having been there in similar situations and killed wounded bears at less than 20 feet I'd still take my M98 based bolts in 338 or 416, they are the weapons I know work from first hand experience and can work with more certainty than a lever.
I agree with you in that ballistics become less meaningfull at spitting distance. What I'm getting at is the OP should get what handles best for him - which may be a lever or a bolt - because short of a semi auto you are only getting one shot off in the scenario you described.
I agree with you in that ballistics become less meaningfull at spitting distance. What I'm getting at is the OP should get what handles best for him - which may be a lever or a bolt - because short of a semi auto you are only getting one shot off in the scenario you described.
Takujualuk
CGN Regular
- Location
- Whitehorse, Yukon
I have shot the big meplat hard cast bullets into wet newsprint and was very unimpressed by the wound channel. Yes they penetrate like crazy..but the wound is not very wide... give me a .338 caliber, 250 grain Partition that penetrates enough and gives a wound channel about 4X bigger across.
There is a reason why FMJ's aren't legal for hunting and the hard cast bullets are just another form of this. In the 45-70 they are very slow in the heavier weights...they carry none of the extra destruction that comes with speed. This might help penetration but not destructive power. If you can be assured of a CNS hit fine. If not I'd rather have the heart and lungs pulped and the shoulder broken than a pencil hole put through them. The 45-70 hype is pretty overblown IMO. There were a bunch of light 45+ black-powder calibers in English hands at the 19th century end. They used hard bullets. They were not considered fully satisfactory for large game.
The Flat Meplat is better than a round one but no where near as destructive as a fast expanding bullet with a balance of mass and speed. In fact I have switched to 300 partitions in my own Guide Gun. Great balance of penetration and wound channel. Still, if I needed to face a bear at 10 yards I take my 358 Norma with 250 Partitions....much more destructive!
There is a reason why FMJ's aren't legal for hunting and the hard cast bullets are just another form of this. In the 45-70 they are very slow in the heavier weights...they carry none of the extra destruction that comes with speed. This might help penetration but not destructive power. If you can be assured of a CNS hit fine. If not I'd rather have the heart and lungs pulped and the shoulder broken than a pencil hole put through them. The 45-70 hype is pretty overblown IMO. There were a bunch of light 45+ black-powder calibers in English hands at the 19th century end. They used hard bullets. They were not considered fully satisfactory for large game.
The Flat Meplat is better than a round one but no where near as destructive as a fast expanding bullet with a balance of mass and speed. In fact I have switched to 300 partitions in my own Guide Gun. Great balance of penetration and wound channel. Still, if I needed to face a bear at 10 yards I take my 358 Norma with 250 Partitions....much more destructive!
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Good post, enjoyed it and well put. The bear scenario is a crisp picture, I can imagine the feeling. While departing with your reasoning on this, I'd want my .375 with 350gr TSXs at 2,500fps. Only reason being it's what I'm most familiar with and if I'm to make a lucky split second shot, it'd be with that rifle. I see your argument for a light, fast handling lever well however.
Ardent, ya I'd really rather have my 470 NE double in this scenario but this was between the OP's post of 45-70 lever or 338 bolt. There are many better choices but these were the two to chose from in this post.
I can't believe this thread made it 4 pages without someone blasting it. Another bear defense thread. I saw a chart with penetration tests at different ranges with different loads, and it seemed to me that the 338 and 375 were way better than the 45/70, 12 guage slug etc... I think whatever you use, the ammo selection is critical. An expanding bullet or foster slug in any of the above will be inferior to hard cast bullet or challenger slug.
You have missed a very important factor in this scenario, which in my opinion greatly influences the choice. IF you need to shoot, your first shot will be at possibly 15-20 feet THROUGH the willows. This is something that the 45-70 hard cast does better than most, and certainly better than a 338 or 358 with spitzer bullets and soft noses.
A solid body hit at this range with a 45 cal 400+ gn bullet even after cutting down several willows may be enough to change his mind, knock him down or kill him outright if luck is sitting on your shoulder. This greatly increases your chances of another shot, regardless.
Line up 5x 5gallon pails full of water and shoot them at 20' with your 338 and then a 4570 heavy hard cast. I bet you will be surprised which pail catches the bullets. The first 5gallon pail will likely shred the fast moving 338 cal bullets and greatly slow penetration. The 458cal keeps on trucking. Ps. Wear a raincoat you will get wet. A big bear (grizzly) has massive chest muscle that you must punch thru to reach the vitals. The impact force of high velocity bullets at such close range will cause shallow wide flesh wounds as the bullet crumbles and fails to penetrate. It may turn the animal or stop a charge. It may not. A heavy hard cast bullet starts slow and doesn't loose a lot of velocity on impact. Its slower speed actually allows the momentum of the bullet to be carried further thru the animal. My 300wm with 180 NP 2990fps stops after about 15" of water. My 405gr factory loaded at 1400fps made it thru 34". The nosler kept the shank but it was mangled. The 405gr round nose mushroomed perfectly. I believe a hardcast bullet would penetrate a lot more meaning it will ALWAYs make it to the vitals no matter the angle
The bear defense part is a given and I don't want to rehash that part, though I hear you about the bolt gun being slower. It seems to work fine against cape buffalo and elephants on another continent though.
I want to talk about what it's like to live alongside either rifle for extended hikes, working in the bush, etc. How do they hold up in the bush? How do they carry? Does the extra length of the bolt gun drive people nuts? They both weigh about the same with irons. Perhaps the .338 is easier to shoot well/become proficient with? What is the bark of either like: will one leave your ears and shoulder in worse condition than the other? If one compares say a boat paddle Ruger .338 to a Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70, is one clearly a superior all-round wilderness rifle?
Thanks very much for responses so far. Lots of great stuff!
