Gun Cart - safe muzzle direction

[Tuco Pike]

well...All you guys can can talk back and forth all you want about the safest way to have the guns stored in your gun cart...but at the end of the day he is building a cart for CAS and SASS law is muzzle up. We have been this route already and according to SASS there is no room for movement on this...also if you are shooting at a range that uses SASS rules (as most are) ...your pretty well locked in there as well.

Correct, true and as it should be.

The problem with muzzle down guncarts in CAS is that firearms are supposed to be transported to the loading and unloading tables muzzle up. Unless you take your cart to the firing line you run a real risk of sweeping someone as you remove your long guns from the cart (if it is a muzzle down design) and move them to muzzle up. Then you don't get to play anymore. Some CAS clubs do not allow carts that carry muzzle down.

Also correct, and as it should be. There is no room to bring a gun cart to the firing area for staging since you have so many "spotters", loading table guy, unloading table guy, RO. There would be 3 or 4 gun carts deep at the loading table, then again at the unloading table which would be completely unacceptable. People who don't shoot cowboy seem to think that the guns will be loaded on the cart, but they are always empty going to and coming from the firing line.

Muzzle up as per SASS/cas rules,
NO exceptions on all of the Sask. ranges I am in charge of. End of story.
Doc. CRO Saskatchewan Association of Wild West Shooters

Horses mouth, there you have it. Likely an ROII.

And if you have ever been to or shot a Cowboy match, muzzle up make the perfect sense.

It is interesting to see CAS take such a hard line on gun carts when they allow cross draw holsters

Apparently:

muzzle toward the ground = not allowed
muzzle pointed uprange = just fine.

Keep your lack of experience with Cowboy Action to yourself. Shouldn't speak negatively on something you don't do or understand, not cool. People who don't shoot your discipline of choice could find many things wrong with it too, if they are on the outside looking in. Matt, you are more than welcome to come to a cowboy match with me and give it a try.

Cowboys used cross draw holsters, and the discipline was based around what was used, and they were. To exclude them would be extremely silly. Cross draw in cowboy is heavily monitored and watched at the matches, and if someone uses incorrectly they are DQ'd. On another note, I find it funny how IDPA doesn't allow shoulder holsters as those are carried every day by Americans and IDPA is to simulate the use of real guns and accessories in simulated self defense situations. SASS does allow a version of the shoulder holster for the derringer type side matches at certain events. So I guess us Cowboy Shooters are the ruination of the shooting sports because we are able to safely use cross draw and shoulder holsters, and can safely transfer our unloaded guns to and from the gun cart without any fear of sweeping.

By the way, and more to the point, I like 667's green cart, very nice indeed. It would be a sweet cart for IPSC, and IDPA and PPC multi gun matches for sure. I think for the OP though, if it is for Cowboy Action, making something that looks more traditional, like it could have existing in the old west is more in keeping with the feeling. If you need any ideas, you can PM me, as I build custom gun carts for Cowboy Action specifically as well as custom gun cases.

Instead of attacking other peoples disciplines, that perhaps one has no experience in, one should examine what is actually in the rules and in practice. The anti's want us fighting each other, let's not help them.

 

[Onagoth]

Keep your lack of experience with Cowboy Action to yourself. Shouldn't speak negatively on something you don't do or understand, not cool. People who don't shoot your discipline of choice could find many things wrong with it too, if they are on the outside looking in. Matt, you are more than welcome to come to a cowboy match with me and give it a try.

Cowboys used cross draw holsters, and the discipline was based around what was used, and they were. To exclude them would be extremely silly. Cross draw in cowboy is heavily monitored and watched at the matches, and if someone uses incorrectly they are DQ'd. On another note, I find it funny how IDPA doesn't allow shoulder holsters as those are carried every day by Americans and IDPA is to simulate the use of real guns and accessories in simulated self defense situations. SASS does allow a version of the shoulder holster for the derringer type side matches at certain events. So I guess us Cowboy Shooters are the ruination of the shooting sports because we are able to safely use cross draw and shoulder holsters, and can safely transfer our unloaded guns to and from the gun cart without any fear of sweeping.

Maybe its just me, but I have a problem with loaded guns being pointed up range, even if they are on an empty chamber. The fact that IDPA doesn't allow it as you point out is more because 99.9% MDs and clubs out there put safety ahead of realism. Yes shoulder holsters are used in real life, no they shouldn't be allowed on a range because a loaded gun is being pointed in an unsafe direction.

To me its a no brainer, but hey, if you want to preserve the heritage of your sport at the expense of safety, have at it. FWIW, watching someone point their gun uprange while drawing from a crossdraw holster doesn't make it safe. Just cause its 'heavily monitored' doesn't mean anything.

Not sure what to say about your gun cart statement. Whether muzzle up, down or horizontal, I've never seen anyone have a problem sweeping somebody. Just don't see the reason to specify one way or the other when anyway can be done safely. As I said, seems odd that SASS/CAS takes a hard line on gun carts, but is much more accepting of cross draw and shoulder holsters.

FYI, do as you will, but if you dismiss my opinions on safety simply because I don't have experience shooting cowboy, then I think you're missing the point. After all, firearm safety, especially in a match context, is fairly universal. Clearly I understand the issue, you just have a different opinion on its implications.

 

[Quigley]

The fact that IDPA doesn't allow it as you point out is more because 99.9% MDs and clubs out there put safety ahead of realism. .

...best post of the week.

 

[The Cold Lake Kid]

Please fellows, no blood feuds between PPC, IDPA, IPSC, CAS et al.
Remember what happened before when we were split up!

 

[Doug The Canuck]

These gun cart threads are the awsome... But more awesomer with pics...

My first cart was great for 3-gun... For three shooters.
Held six long guns and all our gear bags...

Second one is more of the long gun caddy...
Just holds two LG's

Third one.. and the one I'll stick with is the converted baby stroller type.
They work best because they have capacity and fold up nicely for transport.

The golf cart on the left puts the guns pointing right at the shooters head when moving the cart. Hardly safe in my mind.

 

[pauls]

Maybe I'm just tired this morning but, pointing up/down.....does it really matter?

Firearms don't load and shoot on their own.

Even if someone was stupid enough and managed to somehow load and place a loaded firearm on a cart without other competitors or ROs noticing, it still wont fire all on its own.
If it does, the muzzle up, golf cart situation is Darwin doing his job.

 

[667]

The golf cart on the left puts the guns pointing right at the shooters head when moving the cart. Hardly safe in my mind.

After my gun is cleared and chamber flag applied it doesn't bother me...
But I'm not the vervous, panic striken type.

All you can really do anyway is mitigate the muzzle pointed in an unsafe direction situation, because really, one could argue that in moving around a range from stage to stage...

There is no safe direction.

 

[Tuco Pike]

1) Maybe its just me, but I have a problem with loaded guns being pointed up range, even if they are on an empty chamber. The fact that IDPA doesn't allow it as you point out is more because 99.9% MDs and clubs out there put safety ahead of realism. 2) Yes shoulder holsters are used in real life, no they shouldn't be allowed on a range because a loaded gun is being pointed in an unsafe direction.

To me its a no brainer, but hey, if you want to preserve the heritage of your sport at the expense of safety, have at it. 3) FWIW, watching someone point their gun uprange while drawing from a crossdraw holster doesn't make it safe. Just cause its 'heavily monitored' doesn't mean anything.

Not sure what to say about your gun cart statement. 4) Whether muzzle up, down or horizontal, I've never seen anyone have a problem sweeping somebody. Just don't see the reason to specify one way or the other when anyway can be done safely. As I said, seems odd that SASS/CAS takes a hard line on gun carts, but is much more accepting of cross draw and shoulder holsters.

FYI, do as you will, but 5) if you dismiss my opinions on safety simply because I don't have experience shooting cowboy, then I think you're missing the point. After all, firearm safety, especially in a match context, is fairly universal. Clearly I understand the issue, you just have a different opinion on its implications.

1) not sure what you are saying here. I too would have problem with a loaded gun, even with one not in the chamber sitting in a gun cart pointed to the sky. Is that what you are saying? And of course I agree, there is never any ammunition in any gun when it is placed on a gun cart.

2) Again, not sure what you mean hear, unsafe direction. You are saying the safe direction is pointed at the ground. Unless you are using a miami style holster the shoulder holster has the gun pointed at the ground. Am I missing something (maybe so, I am quite slow sometimes). If a gun can be moved muzzle down to a safe position from a gun cart or any other holster, so can it be from a muzzle down shoulder holster.

3) Are we confusing terms here? Must be. Up range in my thinking is pointing toward the firing line from the targets. Down range is where the targets are. Right? So, guns are always pointed down range, when being drawn. If you are thinking that a guy using a crossdraw is standing face front at the targets so that when he draws he is sweeping the guy standing next to him, you are incorrect. The shooter must completely turn his body so that the holster is in the same position as it would be if it was at his side, maybe this is where the confusion came from, and if so I appologize. The heavy monitoring in this case IS what keeps it safe. If someone goes to draw the gun and isn't turned far enough, the RO will stop him. If the shooter does make an error, just like in any discipline, they are subject to penalties and DQ's. SASS is considered one of the safest shooting sports as there is NEVER any movement with a loaded gun (live round in the chamber under a cocked hammer), ever. Watching someone lets you see how it occurs in practice. Seeing it done correctly can explain things a lot easier than having to use a pile of sentences strung together.

4) Its NOT the gun cart. It is the firearms must be carried to the line and away from the line Muzzle up. Why the carts are muzzle up, is in a crowd of people in all 360 degrees how could you go from muzzle up from the line to muzzle down in your cart without sweeping? Same works for going from your cart to the line. If guns are muzzle down in your cart, there are people in every direction from you, so how can you take your guns from Muzzle down, to muzzle up without sweeping to get them to the line? This is why the carts are muzzle up.

5) I am in no way dismissing you. We both agree that sweeping is never acceptable, this is true in IDPA, SASS, IPSC etc.. We both agree that safety is paramount. That is why IDPA has well trained SO's RO's and the like, why IPSC has well trained RO's and such, and why SASS has RO's, Spotters, loading and unloading table monitors. But we should also agree that different disciplines have different ways to accomplish things. I could no way comment on how safe IPSC is just by reading the book, I would need to see and understand it in practice. That's all I am saying.

 

[Onagoth]

Ok...this whole thing is starting to get a little confusing.

Gun Carts - I'm not sure why SASS/CAS mandates that muzzle's must point straight up. Yes, all guns stowed in carts are unloaded and action open, but its not correct to say or imply muzzle up is any safer than muzzle down. Some carts point the muzzle horizontally, I don't think that is unsafe either. Guns stowed in carts only become unsafe when people are handling them. If people transfer guns to a loading area from a cart, as long as its handled properly, it won't matter if the muzzle is up or down.

Cross-draws. This probably boils down to how the holster is worn practically/realistically. It's my understanding SASS does follow a 180 degree rule, so it may very well be that a cross draw only points at the ground, and then down range towards the targets when drawn. But for greater clarity, here are some pics of cross-draw holsters that I would consider unsafe.

This one is also clearly pointing uprange IMO

And this one, you might be able to argue is safe, but if you put a giant yardstick on the muzzle, I think you'd see that it is breaking 180.

 

[golddust]

So that 2 gun golf cart is ok.
How long is the handle on it so when pulling or pushing it around the barrels arent pointing at your head.

 

[667]

So that 2 gun golf cart is ok.
How long is the handle on it so when pulling or pushing it around the barrels arent pointing at your head.

The handle is adjustable... You could have it so the muzzles point straight up if you wanted..

 

[Tuco Pike]

The first holster is safe, as long as the shooter turns correctly to draw. The second one, the brown one, you are correct, that is completely unsafe and would not be allowed at any sanctioned match. That one looks like it is on guy hunting, but none the less unsafe (like the miami shoulder holster).

The third one, looks O.K. accept for his silly pose. If he turns correctly he would be fine.
The last one is a very common one too, and its all in the practice to make sure to be safe.

180 degree rule is generally used to apply to a loaded gun being used. In practice though, it is gun pointed directly at the target when there is a round chambered. If the gun is pointed at the sky and you put a live round in the chamber that is either a stage or match DQ. The actual cant permitted on the cross draw (or any other one) is 20 or 30 degree (I forget actually). Pic's 1,3, & 4 seem to be in that, 2 is clear a bad one.

And you are correct about the cart thing. We are of the same mind. If one could transition the gun from a muzzle down position with a circle of people around him , shoulder to shoulder, to a muzzle up position to go to the line without sweeping anyone it would be O.K.. This is all generated from the issue that guns must be carried to the line, muzzle up. The reason why guns must be carried to the line muzzle up is because in the guns are carried muzzle down there is the chance that you could put the muzzle into the ground. In a lot of USA SASS matches, the ranges are very hilly. They are not subject to the same range only issues like us here. Some matches take place in very varied terrain. But, and to put an end to it, SAFETY is the most important thing. So we are of the same mind.

 

[Vladivar]

Got it finished today

Thanks for all the comments. Looks like CAS rules dictate muzzle up - so that's the way it will be.

After a couple of weeks to find a used stroller and then figuring the way I wanted to get it set up, I got the project pretty much finished today.

Mounts for Rifle & Shotty on each side and a big box for everything else, plus a couple of coats of Tremclad gun metal gray to pretty it up a bit.

Made the box removable so the cart will still fold pretty much flat, it rests into the frame at the front and is attached at the back by a couple of home brew legs that are attached inside the box by washers and threaded caps.

I still want to fine tune a few things but I am happy with the result of a few hours work and less than $100 investment.

 

[stormbringer]

Ummmm will not muzzle "up" on those pretty much put them pointing right at your face?

 

[Doug The Canuck]

Funny how different disciplines have different standards.

NSCA requres straight up, or muzzle facing down.

 

[Tuco Pike]

Ummmm will not muzzle "up" on those pretty much put them pointing right at your face?

Yup, they would be. As such he would be shown how to put it back in his car. Muzzle Up, Muzzle down, caused a big fuss. Imagine the screams muzzle HORIZONTAL would cause.

 

[Sgt F]

Gun Carts

I note in some of the pictures the actions are not open in the carts. CAS rules are actions open when transporting. The only time the action is closed on an empty chamber is from the loading table to the firing or staging position. The empty chamber is verified at the loading table by a table monitor.

The cross draw dance is normally strictly enforced and the gun must remain inside the 170 degree of the firing line. The dance is movement of the body or a starting position so that the gun is facing down range when drawing. we refer to it as direct draw rather than speed draw. most people don't wear their cross draw holster far enough to the front. which certainly eases the dance.

Education of new shooters is a must. At our home club we always assign a new shooter a mentor that spends the day with them. They not only teach safety, shooting, but the responsibilities of all as to the running of the match from set up to tear down.

 

[mechanik]

Up...straight up.

I have one of these

http://www.ruggedgear.com/index.cfm...tegory_id=180/home_id=76/mode=prod/prd214.htm

Love it!

I just ordered one. How do you find it for space for your range bag? I ended up ordering the add-on front bag for it as I have one of the newer Dillon bags (which are pretty big) and I figured it would make it easier to cart if I got the add on bag and then bungied the Dillon on top of it.

 

[stormbringer]

n. The empty chamber is verified at the loading table by a table monitor.

.

IMHO 22 nanoseconds after the "monitor" verifies that the chamber is empty.......it is automatically loaded.

Hence a gun ALWAYS being loaded and treated as such

 

[Onagoth]

Imagine the screams muzzle HORIZONTAL would cause.

None in my experience....and there are several of them in the states.

I take this to mean people have better things to worry about... like how the guns are handled when they are not on the cart, or whether or not they are loaded .

I could be wrong though