Issued small arms to Eastern front German tankers?
- Thread starter DrXenon
- Start date
Waffen-SS had a special extra little pocket in their uniform.
A lot of them used this to carry a WTP or something else very small and small calibre as a sort of 'last ditch' survival piece. Remember, they KNEW that Ivan nearly always killed SS prisoners: the (NKVD) Political Commissars made certain of that.
Fellow I worked with (many years ago) was Waffen-SS and served on the Ostfront, said that EVERYONE HE KNEW carried a hideout piece. That's a LOT of hideout pieces and they are ALL illegal in our fine Free Country.
BIG problem is that most of these little guns now are Restricted-Double-Prohibs in this so-called "Free Country" of ours, despite their very valid place in the history of warfare.
Now that the LGR is being dismantled, perhaps it is time that we should address the issue of Prohibbed historical pieces. Something such as the American Curio and Relic (C&R) status would really help and would do something toward harmonising regulations between two neighbouring countries which are SUPPOSED to be friends. Here, we have to pass a Federal Government test in order to get our RPAL, something which the Americans have by right of birth. We are certainly QUALIFIED for a C&R certificate in that way; it should be the right of any Canadian RPAL holder to acquire any C&R for which his black little heart doth lust. In addition, it would save some of these valuable historical objects from the Smelter.
Time for another polite letter to our good friend Mister Breitkreuz, one would think and another to Mister Harper. Start off with thanks for What Has Been Accomplished and then explain the plight of collectors and of these relics and make the case for 'harmonised regulations'..... which would actually have the side effect of removing WTPs, Lugers, Bolos, CZ-24s and a zillion others from the Smelter List for a while.
The PENDULUM has begun to swing: time for another push!
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A lot of them used this to carry a WTP or something else very small and small calibre as a sort of 'last ditch' survival piece. Remember, they KNEW that Ivan nearly always killed SS prisoners: the (NKVD) Political Commissars made certain of that.
Fellow I worked with (many years ago) was Waffen-SS and served on the Ostfront, said that EVERYONE HE KNEW carried a hideout piece. That's a LOT of hideout pieces and they are ALL illegal in our fine Free Country.
BIG problem is that most of these little guns now are Restricted-Double-Prohibs in this so-called "Free Country" of ours, despite their very valid place in the history of warfare.
Now that the LGR is being dismantled, perhaps it is time that we should address the issue of Prohibbed historical pieces. Something such as the American Curio and Relic (C&R) status would really help and would do something toward harmonising regulations between two neighbouring countries which are SUPPOSED to be friends. Here, we have to pass a Federal Government test in order to get our RPAL, something which the Americans have by right of birth. We are certainly QUALIFIED for a C&R certificate in that way; it should be the right of any Canadian RPAL holder to acquire any C&R for which his black little heart doth lust. In addition, it would save some of these valuable historical objects from the Smelter.
Time for another polite letter to our good friend Mister Breitkreuz, one would think and another to Mister Harper. Start off with thanks for What Has Been Accomplished and then explain the plight of collectors and of these relics and make the case for 'harmonised regulations'..... which would actually have the side effect of removing WTPs, Lugers, Bolos, CZ-24s and a zillion others from the Smelter List for a while.
The PENDULUM has begun to swing: time for another push!
.
DocX: I can tell you have never crewed in a WW2 Tank! When those things were in operational condition, they were loaded to the GILLS with ammo boxes, loose rounds for the Master Weapon, MG belts and so forth. There was barely room for the CREW, much less anything else. Room was tight enough that generally you would carry your rations outside. I'm serious here.
Tank crews never would have had room for something as ungainly as a Kar98k. Most German tanks were armed with dismountable MG-34s which could be used for local defence, given that anyone survived a hit and the subsequent brewing-up. Much more likely for personal weapons would have been Lugers, P-38s and MP-40s.
Our guys generally carried the Enfield revolver, the Webley Mark IV, both in .380 Mark IIz. Canadians seem to have got first crack at all those lovely 9mm Hi-Powers that Inglis was making. Normal equipment for ours also included STENs. First 3 are even legal!
Good luck, friend!
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Tank crews never would have had room for something as ungainly as a Kar98k. Most German tanks were armed with dismountable MG-34s which could be used for local defence, given that anyone survived a hit and the subsequent brewing-up. Much more likely for personal weapons would have been Lugers, P-38s and MP-40s.
Our guys generally carried the Enfield revolver, the Webley Mark IV, both in .380 Mark IIz. Canadians seem to have got first crack at all those lovely 9mm Hi-Powers that Inglis was making. Normal equipment for ours also included STENs. First 3 are even legal!
Good luck, friend!
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I'll second that. I remeber watching a show about WW2 tanks, I think it was greatest tank battles, and there was an old German tanker talking about operating on the Ostfront. I think he was crew in a Stug or Stuh (can't remember). The normal ammo loadout for the main cannon was something like 50 shells. He said they used to go out with at least 70 rounds, stacked up everywhere. They would be sitting on them, and have them stacked around their feet. He later went on to say thatafter they had fired every round of ammo in the vehicle they felt bad b/c they had to go and re-arm, while their infantry were still on the front dying.
You should try driving a 1945 Buick some time: tracks, BIG horn out the front plus a co-ax and another .30-calibre horn in the front passenger seat, .50-calibre gopher-repelling device on the top of the turret, pair of 250-horse up-rated Jimmie 6-71s in the back end, 5 speeds plus reverse, all-up weight 37 tons, top speed about 35 mph. Lotsa fun! Go through anything! Your only opponent was GRAVITY! "Thou shalt not drive thy Sherman into any building which has a BASEMENT!"
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maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I recently read a book written by a Canadian named Bruno Freisen (Panzer Gunner, maybe). He died this spring.
His parents were nostalgic for the old country, and sent the kids and then themselves to Nazi pre-war Germany. Life wasn't nearly as good as the propaganda had let on. Freisen eventually was drafted into a tank unit. He got an Iron Cross for achieving 10 (or 20) acknowledged tank battles. One Jagdpanzer IV had a barrel strike which put them out of action. Another vehicle was a Panzer IV that I think had a T34 hit that jammed the turret. Both were blown in place, and the crews took to their boots. His war ended with a mortar bomb, that wounded him and several others.
He wrote a little about their personal weapons and uniforms. He had a P38 in a black clamshell holster. He felt invinceable in his black tanker's uniform. He liked the quilted cold weather gear. He liked some of their cold cold weather boots, but only because they were particularly designed for tank crew to drive with.
His parents were nostalgic for the old country, and sent the kids and then themselves to Nazi pre-war Germany. Life wasn't nearly as good as the propaganda had let on. Freisen eventually was drafted into a tank unit. He got an Iron Cross for achieving 10 (or 20) acknowledged tank battles. One Jagdpanzer IV had a barrel strike which put them out of action. Another vehicle was a Panzer IV that I think had a T34 hit that jammed the turret. Both were blown in place, and the crews took to their boots. His war ended with a mortar bomb, that wounded him and several others.
He wrote a little about their personal weapons and uniforms. He had a P38 in a black clamshell holster. He felt invinceable in his black tanker's uniform. He liked the quilted cold weather gear. He liked some of their cold cold weather boots, but only because they were particularly designed for tank crew to drive with.
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Since you mentioned him, Wittman was killed in Normandy by 75mm Shermans of the Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment. For a long time the kill was claimed by a British 17pdr Firefly. But a clever Canadian documentary crew surveyed the ground with GPS survey, WWII topographic maps, historic air photos, and a local French salvager. Unquestionably, killed by Canadians. Killed like any other enemy on the battlefield.
As good a tanker as he was, he tried to charge up a seam between flanking Allied units. He tried to barge down a long straight field at high speed. Typhoons flying racetracks overhead rolled in and fired rockets. They got one (or two) of the Tigers. The SFRs joined the punch up with flank shots within 200yds that crippled and set the other tanks on fire. Wittmann's exploded and flipped the turret off.
If you look at pictures of WWII German tank crews, it is very rare to see a holster, or in fact anything on the belt that could catch on something during a hasty exit from the tank (On the rare occasions I was in a Fox armoured car, the Sterlings were on the floor, since trying to get out with anything wrapped around you didn't work).
Since the locals were often unfriendly, and the uniformed enemy might not take prisoners, it would be safe to assume each crewmember had some kind of pocket weaponry, in other words a prohib. And the pistol would be whatever they could get their hands on, not necessarily issued.
Since the locals were often unfriendly, and the uniformed enemy might not take prisoners, it would be safe to assume each crewmember had some kind of pocket weaponry, in other words a prohib. And the pistol would be whatever they could get their hands on, not necessarily issued.
I've been wondering about something too. Would it not be likely that they could have something, either a rifle or SMG, strapped to the outside of the tank along with their personal stuff? This could be something issued or something picked up.
As Juster said you didn't want anything that could snag. They went so far as to make embroidered iron crosses for tankers so that they wouldn't snag.
As Juster said you didn't want anything that could snag. They went so far as to make embroidered iron crosses for tankers so that they wouldn't snag.
outside gear
They could have anything outside but it would not be issue and likely a crew pickup. There would be no way of knowing, my father was issued a .38 which was burrowed away in the back of his Sherman never to seen again until wars end. He carried a small caliber german automatic, and had a sten hung outside. That was for when they had to get out and check something on foot, a task to be studiously avoided according to him.
I don't imagine german tankers were much different from us that way.
They could have anything outside but it would not be issue and likely a crew pickup. There would be no way of knowing, my father was issued a .38 which was burrowed away in the back of his Sherman never to seen again until wars end. He carried a small caliber german automatic, and had a sten hung outside. That was for when they had to get out and check something on foot, a task to be studiously avoided according to him.
I don't imagine german tankers were much different from us that way.
We had a special pistol holster with 6 cartridge loops on the front. It had its own belt and a strap in the bottom of the holster. The holster itself was on the bottom of a strap made of webbing and you put the belt on, then strapped the holster down to your thigh.
The holster itself would accommodate a .380 Webley Mark IV, an Enfield or a Smith & Wesson 10-200, all of which eat the same ammo and are about the same size.
This rig is commonly called the "tanker" holster but, in fact, saw wide issue to vehicle drivers. The idea was that when the thing started brewing and you bailed out, you drew the revolver with one hand as you raised the hatch with the other, pointed the revolver out and then bolted madly for the first available cover, spraying bullets about to clear the way and reduce any opposition to quivering tears. You then had your spare 6 rounds with which to reload.
Don't know if a Browning would fit in that holster or not. Sort of doubt it and don't have a Browning to try it with.
Hope this helps.
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The holster itself would accommodate a .380 Webley Mark IV, an Enfield or a Smith & Wesson 10-200, all of which eat the same ammo and are about the same size.
This rig is commonly called the "tanker" holster but, in fact, saw wide issue to vehicle drivers. The idea was that when the thing started brewing and you bailed out, you drew the revolver with one hand as you raised the hatch with the other, pointed the revolver out and then bolted madly for the first available cover, spraying bullets about to clear the way and reduce any opposition to quivering tears. You then had your spare 6 rounds with which to reload.
Don't know if a Browning would fit in that holster or not. Sort of doubt it and don't have a Browning to try it with.
Hope this helps.
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