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- Thread starter SevenDeuce
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So it's Norinco versus Norinco? A Chinese copy of a Russian rifle or a Chinese copy of an American rifle, either one made by slave labour in a controlled economy and sold here cheap enough to keep our own industries from possibly competing?
Well if that's the way it is, then that's the way it is. Norinco versus Norinco.
The SKS uses the 7.62x39 cartridge, which is not-quite in the same class as a weak loading for a .30-30. Personally, I would NEVER hunt with one because you must be a PERFECT shot in order to pull a "kill" on the animal at anything more than 100 yards.... because the thing doesn't have enough power to make a clean kill at anything more than that.
The M-14 uses the 7.62 NATO cartridge, the military version of the .308 Winchester. Power at the muzzle is just about DOUBLE the power of the little Russian cartridge.
Both rifles are very reliable and not a great deal of trouble to maintain. SKS uses a tilting bolt and a long-stroke piston, M-14 uses a rotating bolt and a short-stroke self-regulating piston. The M-14 is more than a pound heavier than the SKS; this becomes even more obvious when you remove that silly bayonet from the front of the SKS.
Being semi-automatic rifles, both are confined to 5-round magazine capacities, so I don't know how much fun that is going to be. Personally, I find reloading a semi-auto every 5 rounds to be more aggravation than it is worth. The REAL problem is that semi-autos like to change their points of impact according to the magazine. With a 5-round magazine, the rifle will put its first shot in one place, then a nice 3-round group, then the 5th shot opposite side of the target from the first. Repeated testing with an M-1 Garand (father of the M-14) showed Number 1 high and left, followed by 6 in a nice group, followed by Number 8 low and right. With a 5-round mag capacity, you get only 3 rounds off that you can really count on. I gave up shooting semi-autos almost entirely for this reason when our 20-round magazines were banned by the Government that promised not to interfere with sports shooting.
Ammo: surplus 7.62x39 is available but NONE of it is suitable for serious shooting. Two bits a shot for the Czech Army's 1971 garbage sounds like a good deal and it is if you improve the stuff by tearing it down and reloading the powder and bullets into freshly-primed casings. There IS no surplus 7.62 NATO, apart from a bit of old corrosive Czech stuff at better than double the price. If you want reloadable ammo for either rifle, you will have to purchase Partizan at commercial retail prices...... or Lapua if you are really rich. Federal, Winchester and Remington also all make both cartridges but, again, expensive although not as frightening as Lapua.
I'm not trying to rain on your parade, friend. I own both rifles myself and I handload both cartridges, as well as a whole bunch of others.
My choice for a full-powered FUN rifle that will knock down a deer at 300 yards as well as a tin can at 50 yards would be a Lee-Enfield .303. It's a bolt rifle, sure, but it holds 10 rounds in the mag plus one up the pipe. It duplicates the .308 ballistically almost to perfection. With a couple of drops of oil in the right spot, the action is fast enough that, once you learn how to use it, you won't miss a semi-auto. They have half a dozen different lengths of butt so you can fit the rifle to YOURSELF; it really improves your shooting. They absolutely REEK of History and they are even MORE reliable than either of the Norinco rifles OR their better-made 'inspirations' from Russia and the USA.
If you really WANT an SKS, get a Russian one. Better made, for one thing, better materials for another and, right now, they are dirt cheap: actual Russian War Reserve rifles, factory rebuilt to "NEW"..... and they sell for less than a Chinese copy.
And something to think about: making your own loads. For my .303s, I can load Match grade ammunition for 60 cents a shot or I can load a nice low-recoiling plinking load which actually has more accuracy than you will get out of ANY SKS.... for a dime. I can go to the range and shoot as much as I want to for 5 or 10 bucks. It would cost me more than that to run exactly TWO mags through the M-14..... which might take 3 or 4 minutes.
Anyway, just my 2 cents (which now cost 3.8 cents to make).
Some of the other fellows will be on shortly, so see what they think, too.
That's the beauty of the Internet: there is room for all kinds of opinions...... even mine!
Important Rule: DO have fun!
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I note that this is your first post. WELCOME ABOARD!!!!!
.
Well if that's the way it is, then that's the way it is. Norinco versus Norinco.
The SKS uses the 7.62x39 cartridge, which is not-quite in the same class as a weak loading for a .30-30. Personally, I would NEVER hunt with one because you must be a PERFECT shot in order to pull a "kill" on the animal at anything more than 100 yards.... because the thing doesn't have enough power to make a clean kill at anything more than that.
The M-14 uses the 7.62 NATO cartridge, the military version of the .308 Winchester. Power at the muzzle is just about DOUBLE the power of the little Russian cartridge.
Both rifles are very reliable and not a great deal of trouble to maintain. SKS uses a tilting bolt and a long-stroke piston, M-14 uses a rotating bolt and a short-stroke self-regulating piston. The M-14 is more than a pound heavier than the SKS; this becomes even more obvious when you remove that silly bayonet from the front of the SKS.
Being semi-automatic rifles, both are confined to 5-round magazine capacities, so I don't know how much fun that is going to be. Personally, I find reloading a semi-auto every 5 rounds to be more aggravation than it is worth. The REAL problem is that semi-autos like to change their points of impact according to the magazine. With a 5-round magazine, the rifle will put its first shot in one place, then a nice 3-round group, then the 5th shot opposite side of the target from the first. Repeated testing with an M-1 Garand (father of the M-14) showed Number 1 high and left, followed by 6 in a nice group, followed by Number 8 low and right. With a 5-round mag capacity, you get only 3 rounds off that you can really count on. I gave up shooting semi-autos almost entirely for this reason when our 20-round magazines were banned by the Government that promised not to interfere with sports shooting.
Ammo: surplus 7.62x39 is available but NONE of it is suitable for serious shooting. Two bits a shot for the Czech Army's 1971 garbage sounds like a good deal and it is if you improve the stuff by tearing it down and reloading the powder and bullets into freshly-primed casings. There IS no surplus 7.62 NATO, apart from a bit of old corrosive Czech stuff at better than double the price. If you want reloadable ammo for either rifle, you will have to purchase Partizan at commercial retail prices...... or Lapua if you are really rich. Federal, Winchester and Remington also all make both cartridges but, again, expensive although not as frightening as Lapua.
I'm not trying to rain on your parade, friend. I own both rifles myself and I handload both cartridges, as well as a whole bunch of others.
My choice for a full-powered FUN rifle that will knock down a deer at 300 yards as well as a tin can at 50 yards would be a Lee-Enfield .303. It's a bolt rifle, sure, but it holds 10 rounds in the mag plus one up the pipe. It duplicates the .308 ballistically almost to perfection. With a couple of drops of oil in the right spot, the action is fast enough that, once you learn how to use it, you won't miss a semi-auto. They have half a dozen different lengths of butt so you can fit the rifle to YOURSELF; it really improves your shooting. They absolutely REEK of History and they are even MORE reliable than either of the Norinco rifles OR their better-made 'inspirations' from Russia and the USA.
If you really WANT an SKS, get a Russian one. Better made, for one thing, better materials for another and, right now, they are dirt cheap: actual Russian War Reserve rifles, factory rebuilt to "NEW"..... and they sell for less than a Chinese copy.
And something to think about: making your own loads. For my .303s, I can load Match grade ammunition for 60 cents a shot or I can load a nice low-recoiling plinking load which actually has more accuracy than you will get out of ANY SKS.... for a dime. I can go to the range and shoot as much as I want to for 5 or 10 bucks. It would cost me more than that to run exactly TWO mags through the M-14..... which might take 3 or 4 minutes.
Anyway, just my 2 cents (which now cost 3.8 cents to make).
Some of the other fellows will be on shortly, so see what they think, too.
That's the beauty of the Internet: there is room for all kinds of opinions...... even mine!
Important Rule: DO have fun!
.
I note that this is your first post. WELCOME ABOARD!!!!!
.
Well, what can I add after this entertaining, well-informed, stylish dissertation by Smellie? 
I think that a SKS rifle, being currently so cheap, and ammo as well, is an unavoidable addition to anyone's gun locker. It's a great first center-fire rifle, super fun for plinking and reliable. Accurate? Short range, good enough.
I think that a SKS rifle, being currently so cheap, and ammo as well, is an unavoidable addition to anyone's gun locker. It's a great first center-fire rifle, super fun for plinking and reliable. Accurate? Short range, good enough.
SevenDeuce
Member
Thanks for the reply, very interesting and informative. You brought up points I hadn't previously considered.
I haven't set my mind on any particular rifle yet, I just happened to narrow it down to two rifles that caught my attention. That being said, I'll look into the Lee-Enfield.
As far as re-loading my ammo, I don't have the immediate resources to afford the equipment, but it's definitely something I covet in order to customize the load to my liking, while keeping the individual cost of the cartridge lower than store bought ammunition.
Definitely something I'll invest in eventually though.
Check out your local sporting-goods shop, see what they have in the back room. Many shops take in Lee-Enfields on trade for modern rifles, then hide them to keep them off the market. If you tell them that's what you are looking for..... and nothing else.... they might even sell you one. I have specimens here that I paid under $100 for, just 3 or 4 years ago. You might have to go as much as $150 but, for that, make sure you get a good barrel.
ANYTHING else, somebody here can coach you through. We have people here with LOTS of experience on Lee-Enfields. Friend Lou the Pou is one of them, BTW.
I would consider setting up for loading your own earlier rather than later. If you get your basic stuff through a place like Lee Factory Sales (fsreloading dot com) you can set up to do almost any cartridge for under $140, then another $25 or 30 for each additional. Die sets are as low as $18 brand new, bullet moulds (good ones) the same. Primers and powder you buy locally, of course; the shipping costs are just deadly!
Sooner you set up, sooner you stop paying full retail!
As Lou says, an SKS is just about mandatory..... and they ARE fun. They just aren't a long-range rifle with which you can do precision shooting....... but that's not what they were designed for, anyway! Russian ones are still cheap and still good. You can thank Comrade Stalin that there are so many of them available.
Hope this helps.
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ANYTHING else, somebody here can coach you through. We have people here with LOTS of experience on Lee-Enfields. Friend Lou the Pou is one of them, BTW.
I would consider setting up for loading your own earlier rather than later. If you get your basic stuff through a place like Lee Factory Sales (fsreloading dot com) you can set up to do almost any cartridge for under $140, then another $25 or 30 for each additional. Die sets are as low as $18 brand new, bullet moulds (good ones) the same. Primers and powder you buy locally, of course; the shipping costs are just deadly!
Sooner you set up, sooner you stop paying full retail!
As Lou says, an SKS is just about mandatory..... and they ARE fun. They just aren't a long-range rifle with which you can do precision shooting....... but that's not what they were designed for, anyway! Russian ones are still cheap and still good. You can thank Comrade Stalin that there are so many of them available.
Hope this helps.
.
SevenDeuce
Member
That's exactly why I was interested in the SKS in the first place. It seemed like a rifle that balanced pleasure of shooting, practicality, and affordability fairly well in one package deal. The M-14, with the bigger cartridge, was then an alternative I could compare it with. A gain in long range accuracy and power was the counterpart to the higher cost.
I don't know. I find my M14s very accurate at 300m no matter which mag I use. Very fun to shoot in semi auto even with 5 rounds. Different strokes for different folks.
I have a few SKSes which are fun as well but my M14s are the ones I take out more often.
I'm in a similar situation, looking to fill that need for something fun to shoot as well as something that I could hunt with. I came to the conclusion that buying a rifle that does both effectively would probably cost me at least $400-500. So I've decided instead on two rifles in the $200 range. An SKS, and an old sporterized P14 (Pattern 14 Enfield).
About the SKS... be aware that there is a known issue with the free floating firing pin. Since there's no spring to return the firing pin, commercial primers, or improper cleaning, can lead to it sticking, resulting in something known as 'slamfire'. When the firing pin sticks after a round is fired, a new round is chambered and fired immediately, and so on. Basically the rifle goes accidental full auto. There are aftermarket replacment firing pin/spring combinations that can prevent the issue.
About the SKS... be aware that there is a known issue with the free floating firing pin. Since there's no spring to return the firing pin, commercial primers, or improper cleaning, can lead to it sticking, resulting in something known as 'slamfire'. When the firing pin sticks after a round is fired, a new round is chambered and fired immediately, and so on. Basically the rifle goes accidental full auto. There are aftermarket replacment firing pin/spring combinations that can prevent the issue.
lejarretnoir
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- 162km from Connaught
M14's are more accurate out of the box than any SKS and make an excellent hunting rifle if you don't mind the weight. They recoil more and better quality ammo can be had easily, but more expensive.
The SKS makes a fun plinker, low recoil and cheap to shoot. The sighting system is less accurate than the M14, used to kill many deer at short ranges. Accuracy with milsurp crap ammo is marginal at best 2-8" groups at 100yds for SKS and 1-4" groups with the M14.
These are my experiences based on owning several of both for 20yrs. Since you don't reload, the SKS and a case of surplus is a good way to blast your way into new rifle ownership. You'll be hooked into trying other guns later.
The SKS makes a fun plinker, low recoil and cheap to shoot. The sighting system is less accurate than the M14, used to kill many deer at short ranges. Accuracy with milsurp crap ammo is marginal at best 2-8" groups at 100yds for SKS and 1-4" groups with the M14.
These are my experiences based on owning several of both for 20yrs. Since you don't reload, the SKS and a case of surplus is a good way to blast your way into new rifle ownership. You'll be hooked into trying other guns later.
lejarretnoir
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- 162km from Connaught
Just keep the bolt clean after each range session and you won't have any problem with that. Never had an SKS slamfire yet after several cases and several SKS's.
I owned a Norinco 305S, and sold it recently.( I dont miss it).On the other hand,I have two Russian SKS'S and a Chicom version and have no plans of getting rid of them ever. For me, it's the history behind the weapon, and the Norinco had none of that. If you are looking for a hunting rifle, Savage has a nice package in the 111; I paid less than $400 for mine and am very happy with it.
lejarretnoir
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- 162km from Connaught
You need to pickup the M14 book and see when the USA sold their H&R M14 machinary to the Chinese during the Vietnam war era. The Chinese have been building and improving them since. I consider that some history.
Now they make an M16 M4 that's very reliable. It's still ongoing history.
Yes, I own a nice Russian SKS unfired since refurb too.
Deltasilver
Regular
- Location
- Right behind you...
The SKS will run great out of the box. The most common issue with the SKS is the odd magazine that will take 5.5 rounds from the stripper leaving a floater in front of the bolt. My personal favorites are Izhevsk rifles, preferably in the original blue. The painted rifles still make great shooters tho.
Hop onto the Main Battle Rifleforum for a rundown on the M14S' list of problems and fixes. You can get an idea for yourself what it takes to get one running right.
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Hop onto the Main Battle Rifleforum for a rundown on the M14S' list of problems and fixes. You can get an idea for yourself what it takes to get one running right.
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I have both; a couple of Norc M-14's and a Norc SKS.
The M-14 is the shooting equivalent of a 1970's American muscle car; big, loud, powerful, may not handle well on corners but when you put the hammer down on the straightaways, boy does it go. There's a huge M-14 community in Canada. If you check out the Main Battle Rifles forum, there's all sorts of info, and Hungry runs M-14 clinics all over Canada where you can learn to tweak and tune and accurize and shoot them. These are sort of like quilting bees for men and are hugely worthwhile and an excellent time. Last weekend's clinic, at CFB Petawawa, involved learning how to shoot it at out to 500 yards, with irons.
The SKS is the shooting equivalent of the Lada Cossack: small underpowered and ugly, but extremely affordable, and indestructible. If you have to buy one, go with a Russian one; they're more interesting, historically speaking, and better finished. SKSes are hugely popular in Canada due to price, ammo cost, and availability.
You should also give the CZ858 a look: if it were a car, it'd be a Czech-made European roadster; sleek, sporty, and an utter blast to drive. It's more expensive than either the -14 or the SKS, but comes with four mags, and shoots the same round as the SKS, so it's as affordable to shoot, and in the long term ammo cost, not firearm cost, is going to be your major expense. It's also better made, more accurate, and easier to strip than the SKS, and it looks considerably more evil (most non-gunnies can't tell it from an AK47) and makes Wendy Cukier wet her panties in uncontrollable fits of hysterical outraged moral cowardice.
My SKS basically sits in the back of my gunsafe, unloved and unfired, since I got my 858. I keep on thinking I should sell it, but it wouldn't bring enough to really justify the hassle. If you're interested, though, PM me; it comes with a PLA jungle stock, PLA webbing, and a scout scope mount.
The M-14 is the shooting equivalent of a 1970's American muscle car; big, loud, powerful, may not handle well on corners but when you put the hammer down on the straightaways, boy does it go. There's a huge M-14 community in Canada. If you check out the Main Battle Rifles forum, there's all sorts of info, and Hungry runs M-14 clinics all over Canada where you can learn to tweak and tune and accurize and shoot them. These are sort of like quilting bees for men and are hugely worthwhile and an excellent time. Last weekend's clinic, at CFB Petawawa, involved learning how to shoot it at out to 500 yards, with irons.
The SKS is the shooting equivalent of the Lada Cossack: small underpowered and ugly, but extremely affordable, and indestructible. If you have to buy one, go with a Russian one; they're more interesting, historically speaking, and better finished. SKSes are hugely popular in Canada due to price, ammo cost, and availability.
You should also give the CZ858 a look: if it were a car, it'd be a Czech-made European roadster; sleek, sporty, and an utter blast to drive. It's more expensive than either the -14 or the SKS, but comes with four mags, and shoots the same round as the SKS, so it's as affordable to shoot, and in the long term ammo cost, not firearm cost, is going to be your major expense. It's also better made, more accurate, and easier to strip than the SKS, and it looks considerably more evil (most non-gunnies can't tell it from an AK47) and makes Wendy Cukier wet her panties in uncontrollable fits of hysterical outraged moral cowardice.
My SKS basically sits in the back of my gunsafe, unloved and unfired, since I got my 858. I keep on thinking I should sell it, but it wouldn't bring enough to really justify the hassle. If you're interested, though, PM me; it comes with a PLA jungle stock, PLA webbing, and a scout scope mount.
Deltasilver
Regular
- Location
- Right behind you...
LOL Chinese knockoff of a Dodge Dart maybe. And if the SKS is a Lada, the 858 is a Lada with extra trim and mag wheels...
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SevenDeuce
Member
I quite enjoyed your comparison there lol. I've never looked into the CZ858, I'll do my research.
this is another MISCONCEPTION- the H&R machinery went to TIAWAN/formosa/ NATIONALIST CHINA, NOT the peoples republic- the chinese rifles we get are REVERSE ENGINEERED copied from m14TRWS, which were dropped/lost by us forces and arvn;
i guess it comes from the fact when you mention china now, most folks don't realize there's TWO chinas, as only ONE IS A THREAT
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