My new .41 Long Colt shoots better than some modern handguns I've owned, 1 1/2" at 25

Ardent

Ardent

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My new .41 Long Colt shoots better than some modern handguns I've owned, 1 1/2" at 25

It wasn't easy, a half dozen powders, two different bullets, and a multitude of different seating depths and crimps and finally found one peculiar load right on the velocity I want (750fps for a 185gr) that will fall into 1 1/2" at 25 yards. I was stunned when I walked up to the target board seeing as my other groups with the other loads were 6-12" at 25 yards.

I won't go into details here, but will put an article about how I got to the load on my site in the future. Keen eyes and minds will figure most of it out just from my excited target board notes. The load is smokeless, and involves an unlikely assembly procedure that includes working the press upside down (some may see where this is going) that I thought had at least a snowballs chance in hell of working. Turns out it did, I was desperate as this old Colt has the best bore I've seen in a .41, super tight mechanicals and function, quite evidentially being cared for and lightly used over the years. In my mind if I couldn't get this one to shoot I wasn't about to get any .41 to. It is matching any of my modern revolvers I've had at this point, beating several too, and all from the supposedly woefully inaccurate .41. Too neat. :)

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Nice! Very interested in this as I'm quite new to reloading and I have a .41LC and I'm still in the (very slow) process of making ammo for it.

Also, when you write it up, don't be shy on talking about "non-upside-down" reloading procedures!;)
 
Depends what you have this load is one I'd only feel comfortable with in an SAA. The 1892, 1889 and especially 1877 should be considered black powder only propositions no matter what anyone tells you in my opinion. I wouldn't want to see anyone try smokeless loads with enough pressure to expand a hollow base adequately in any of those.

I'm even nervous with smokeless in an antique SAA to be frank, I wouldn't load smokeless for antiques until very well versed in handloading. BUT, loading black powder, with pure lead or close hollow bases will be safe. :) 19-20grs of FFFg, safely compressed and no air space, will make the .41 do what it did in the late 1800's perfectly, and is safe.
 
Should have been clearer too, sorry, you're likely familiar but the biggest challenge with the .41 Long Colt is it was never designed properly. Chambers are typically .412" and are bored straight through, without throats unlike any modern cartridge. Initially it was a heel based bullet cartridge, like the .22LR (.22 Rimfires are the only surviving heel base cartridges in production) where the bullet is the same diameter as the case and has a smaller diameter "heel" that fits inside the case and is crimped to hold the bullet in place.

Colt modernized the .41, but not their chambers, they standardized to the .38-40's ~.401" groove diameter for the barrels late 19th century but went to a .386" diameter bullet, that sat inside a lengthened .41 Colt case. Colloquially, this is known as the .41 Long Colt though Colt never used the "Long" notation on their guns. It looked modern, now being "inside lubricated" meaning bullet lube and grooves were now entirely inside the case, unlike the earlier heel base version which was "outside lubricated. However it was far and behind its competitors due to not having a bore of its own, Colt likely felt it was too much trouble to start rifling barrels to a whole new dimension (proper .41 Colt groove diameter would be .385", but it doesn't exist) that shared no commonality with other offering they made, so they opted for the aforementioned .386" hollow base. The .386" bullet featured a massive hollow base that expanded to fill first the .412" chamber, then swaged down to .401" in the barrel.

The problem we have today is (presuming you have a late .41, like my SAA) we need to bump the bullet diameter up with a rapid, gas-voluminous pressure spike to upset the bullet and expand past groove diameter (we actually want it to go to .412", sealing the chamber). The risk is while black powder does this very well at safe pressures, smokeless has entirely different pressure curves and doesn't readily bump up the bullet diameter like black. I've been struggling off and on for several years to find a way to do it reliably with safe pressures. What I found was one very voluminous, fast burning and rapidly pressure spiking powder, if loaded in a curious way to actually fill the hollow base with powder, can do it and it's out shooting even black powder in my gun. Crimp is critically important in the .41 as well, and I had to improvise there, as crimp allows pressure to start building before the bullet leaves the case, giving the bump we need to expand the bullet to fill the chamber. This all said, it's risky business playing like that as we're looking for a pressure spike in a very pressure sensitive old gun. Like I said I wouldn't try it in anything but an SAA and even there, I've very very cautious as there's no pressure data for .41 and smokeless.
 
Ardent said:
Wish I could tell you, I've heard guys say they're both superior and far inferior to the hollow base. They'll likely work better in the earlier, ~.408 groove diameter guns than the hollow base, but you have to shorten the cases (Starline). Lucky to have that mold, not common.
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There are so many variables that can spoil the recipe when casting and loading for the .41. No wonder opinions are so polarized.

When your Starline brass starts cracking at neck from all the shooting you are doing, you can trim them back and I'll send you some to try.;)
 
cyclone said:
The awesome .32 site !....:cool:

Well-done !...:cheers:
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Well thanks :) Building her up slowly but surely, little of everything, looks like Keltec KSG test / review next week.

Here's the Colt with "the load" ringing steel at 25 yards this evening- it's scary accurate and I never expected this from a 115 year old .41 Long Colt- beating my last modern 'Smith.

 
Ardent said:
Well thanks :) Building her up slowly but surely, little of everything, looks like Keltec KSG test / review next week.

Here's the Colt with "the load" ringing steel at 25 yards this evening- it's scary accurate and I never expected this from a 115 year old .41 Long Colt- beating my last modern 'Smith.
Click to expand...

When you find a load that works for your antique :cool: , it can be true bliss....:wave:...bullseyes and 2-3 inch groups at 25 yards are massively rewarding and satisfying !....:evil:
 
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I enjoy doing it ;) Not when I was getting 6 and 12" groups though, attempt after attempt. Even my BP loads weren't stellar, same for Triple 7. Then all of a sudden one random thought worked out better than anticipated. The technique works with the 202gr hollow base as well, hopefully will have the proper article up in a couple weeks.
 
I have played with the hollow based 41 cal bullets to no end, soft lead, variety of powders, just an exercise in plain frustration that resulted in so so accuracy, best accuraccy I could muster was with heeled bullets, a bit of a PIA for crimping but once you have that mastered the guns shoot as good as any. My 44 remington chambered remington 1875 is shockingly accurate with it's heeled bullet. Have not bothered with a hollow based bullet as i can't see it getting any better.
 
Yes I felt your pain til yesterday. Like Boolitcaster says the spread of opinions will be wide and won't have a consensus as there are so many variables, and so many people trying different angles than the next guy. Out of my gun, hollow base is just as you describe heeled, it can't get any better. That three shot group on the first page is no longer the best one, I rested firmly and have shot a couple groups of two shots touching with a flier an inch outside now. I needed to go to a bulky powder with a very fast burn rate and 100% load density to get it to work (took some odd seating and crimp steps to make it work given we're talking 4grs of powder). Before that I had seen erratic accuracy and velocities, sometimes the base would expand sometimes it wouldn't. Once I found a way to get it to expand reliably on a safe powder charge I haven't looked back, but look forward to trying the heeled bullets one day too.
 
I find most of my better antique handguns shoot better than modern guns.
This US marked second model schofield has a mint shiney smooth bore and i can shoot under 3 inch groups with it at 25 Yds off a rest.
The gun shuts up tight as when it was new 0 play and perfect tight lock up.
It has a tight chamber throat and bore at about .451
I used SWC Keith bullets 250 gr sized .452 and 5.5 grs of trail boss in a 45 schofield case.
This gun shoots great and is supper fast to reload with speedloader.
This is one of the best pre 1898 guns i have ever bought.
All orignal to. was blued just grey now with blueing in protected areas.
As its my keeper i was thinking about getting it redone but theses Schofields have gone way up in value the last couple years all the smith collectors told me to leave it alone.
Holster is made from a Big old LA Gator thats just part of his leg :)

In the second picture you can see the Hammer and latch steel checkering is like new its still sticky sharp and im sure this gun was not used hardly at all after its US service and whom ever carried it in the US military took great care of it.

My SAA colt shoots just as good and so does my remington 1875 its all about finding a pet load.



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