Suspiscions confirmed.

Demonical said:
^ Critter, all that stuff about the benefit of protecting breeding females has been known for a long time. AB hasn't had a cow moose season, in the zones I hunt for 20 years. That hasn't had any effect at all in helping the moose numbers.

Did you check out any of the moose mortality studies? Approx 65% of all moose calves are taken by bears, in the first 14 weeks of life. That doesn't leave a lot of calves to survive the winter, once the wolves kick into high gear. Because winter is when they kill the most.

In the area where we hunt the rarest thing you'll see is a cow, with 2 calves come October. The bears are guaranteed to have taken one; in most cases, when we see a cow these days, she is barren. No calves have survived.

It didn't used to be like that. Man the moose numbers here, in the 1980s... I don't hope to ever see them recover, in my life time, which is sad.

I've been hunting the Swan Hills area of central AB for 32 years. It's depressing to see what has happened to the moose herd, over that time.

The collapse of the moose herd here, began with several severe winters, exacerbated by tick infestations. But the numbers have gone down in plateaus and then level off, each time at lower over-all numbers.

During this time there has been an observed explosion in wolf numbers. There was a fascinating study published in the Edmonton Journal (5-6 years ago now), which verified what I'm saying. Wolf numbers in AB are at all time highs, referencing any recorded data.

I can remember when seeing a wolf was a rare event, and a thrill. Not now. One of the most effective ways to hunt wolves here is to call moose!! There's such a small moose herd now, that when the wolves hear a moose call, they home in on it. Big time.

And because the moose numbers have crashed, the wolves have started to clean out the deer.

It's not all on the wolves of course; the Gov't of AB decided they needed more revenue, so they instituted a whitetail doe license up in these areas. STUPID IDEA!! So now the whitetail numbers are also the lowest I've ever seen up here...

Another factor: Indians are exempt from regulations and quotas. They show up in the Swan Hills starting in Aug-Sep and shoot every moose in sight.

I'd say the moose herd here is f**ked...

Oh yeah, when we hunted moose in 2010 we saw 3 moose in a week; all bulls that we called in. Not a single cow or calf...
Click to expand...

You are onto something with the ticks.

I think the low moose numbers in the past few decades have allot to do with the warmer winters.

When I stopped moose hunting 20 years ago in NE Saskatchewan ticks were thriving in the progressively warmer winters, and it was not uncommon for them to drive moose crazy until they are rubbed raw and down to skin and bone. Moose are very susceptible to ticks.

If warmer winters are allowing pine beetles to thrive and avoid winter kills, I would like to know how the ticks are doing and how they are affecting the moose populations.
 
Let's get one thing clear: "Game management" means regulating human hunting and range issues in such a way as to ensure that the maximum number of animals survive for the longest possible period. That's the theory, and in practice the ideal numbers are never achieved. However with good management practices the gross hills and valleys of ungulate populations are ironed out to a relatively smooth wave rather than nature's extremes.

Management worked well for a good part of the 20th century, and could work again if we had the political will. Unfortunately the "armchair environmentalists" are louder and better organized than we hunters.

One other note as an aside: Prior to the arrival of the European settlers there were no moose south of Prince George. First we burned the forests to expose mineral soil for prospecting. Then we cleared land for agriculture, and logged the rest. This opened vast areas of prime feed for ungulates and the populations increased accordingly. Does that sound like a good thing? Well it's okay as far as it goes, but not enough has ever been done to control populations by reducing them to the winter carrying capacity. This is one of the areas in which "management" has failed, and will continue to fail until those who regulate wildlife remember why they were elected in the first place, and stop listening to uninformed urban dwellers who don't know the first thing about wild game populations.
 
An ATV will get you into deep bush, it's no substitute for hunting skills.

A few years back, my buddy and I were scouting for moose, driving along in midday on a trail. I could smell a moose stinkpot. It was right in the middle of the hard packed clay trail we were riding on. So we stopped to check it out, and to check the other sign, which there was an abundance of (if you know what you're looking for)
We knew right away there was a herd of moose very nearby, that were rutting, and it was pretty evident which piece of bush they were holed up in. There had to be at least one big bull and several cows.

As we're sitting there, we hear ATVs approaching. A convoy of ATVs rolled up; all from the same camp (like 6 machines and 9-10 guys). These guys asked if we were seeing any moose, and whether we'd seen any sign. Well we were still parked on this stink pot, and these guys were oblivious to it. They never saw any of the other obvious sign either, which was all around us.

So we talked to these guys as politely as possible and they took off after a bit.


Later that afternoon, I stalked in on this herd of moose and got in on a pretty decent 45-48" bull, which I passed up as too small.


I've seen lots of other examples of ATV Cowboys rolling around the bush, without a clue of what they were missing, stuck to the quad seats...
 
rodagra said:
Let's get one thing clear: "Game management" means regulating human hunting and range issues in such a way as to ensure that the maximum number of animals survive for the longest possible period. That's the theory, and in practice the ideal numbers are never achieved. However with good management practices the gross hills and valleys of ungulate populations are ironed out to a relatively smooth wave rather than nature's extremes.

Management worked well for a good part of the 20th century, and could work again if we had the political will. Unfortunately the "armchair environmentalists" are louder and better organized than we hunters.

One other note as an aside: Prior to the arrival of the European settlers there were no moose south of Prince George. First we burned the forests to expose mineral soil for prospecting. Then we cleared land for agriculture, and logged the rest. This opened vast areas of prime feed for ungulates and the populations increased accordingly. Does that sound like a good thing? Well it's okay as far as it goes, but not enough has ever been done to control populations by reducing them to the winter carrying capacity. This is one of the areas in which "management" has failed, and will continue to fail until those who regulate wildlife remember why they were elected in the first place, and stop listening to uninformed urban dwellers who don't know the first thing about wild game populations.
Click to expand...

They may not have been as prosperous (or they may have I won't argue what I don't know), but they have extended all the way down into Colorado long before us Europeans ever came along.

Eastern moose used to extend in healthy numbers all the way down to Maine before Europeans came.

I would say overall we have taken away far more moose habitat than we have created for them.
 
thats really depressing to read. A couple more years and the bears and wolves will starve and the population decline, and in twenty five years the moose will be recovering. The cycle goes on.
Peta and all treehuggers can rejoice.
I shoot every coyote or wolf I see and also carry a bear tag in season.
I have read often that culls don't work because the wolves will just have bigger litters and so on. Which I know is true but a cull every year works fine.
 
old hound said:
thats really depressing to read. A couple more years and the bears and wolves will starve and the population decline, and in twenty five years the moose will be recovering. The cycle goes on.
Peta and all treehuggers can rejoice.
I shoot every coyote or wolf I see and also carry a bear tag in season.
I have read often that culls don't work because the wolves will just have bigger litters and so on. Which I know is true but a cull every year works fine.
Click to expand...

So BC is getting away from game managment and going back to nature? What about a spring bear hunt and bear baiting? Are these even on the radar? I've also never understood how bag limits are set. Wouldn't fish and game in BC notice increasing numbers of bear / coyotes taken and decreasing numbers of moose, deer etc? Does anybody have any actual statistics?
 
pretty much everyone can see the value of controling introduced species that gain the upper hand on indigenous......we have poisoned lakes and did Rat control work in the Charlottes to help the murreletts and in helping the murreletts we helped the falcons.

but cannot by our manipulation of the land we give the upperhand to an indigenous species as well making it just as much a threat as a introduced?
 
ianmcdz said:
So BC is getting away from game managment and going back to nature? What about a spring bear hunt and bear baiting? Are these even on the radar? I've also never understood how bag limits are set. Wouldn't fish and game in BC notice increasing numbers of bear / coyotes taken and decreasing numbers of moose, deer etc? Does anybody have any actual statistics?
Click to expand...

"So BC is getting away from game managment and going back to nature?"

If you are taking this from my post, it is a typical case of picking and choosing what you want to hear, and taking things out of pretext.
Going back to natures way of boom and bust, is happening because of modern, lukewarm game management that has failed. It has failed because it does little more than set the bag limits and hunting methods of the hunted game species.
In the way back years I've talked about, they made a good effort at controlling predators, as well. They placed a two dollar bounty on coyotes and a $25 bounty on each wolf turned in. Twenty five dollars then was the equivilant of something like $300 to $350 today.
They deemed black bears to be vermin, shootable at any time, year 'round and left where they were, if the hunter desired to do so.
In spite of all this, wolves rose to extremely high levels and in 1950, the BC government started the largest wolf poisoning program ever carried out in Canada, which lasted several years.
This had the effect of levelling the playing field between wolves and game, including ranchers cattle. Thus, we had a long period of time, before the wolves, this time accompanied by the largest population of black bears in BCs history, is again decimating the wild game.
Of course, we wll never, ever, have another major wolf poisoning program. But modern game mangers hands are completely tied by the PETA, tree hugging groups, who have the major control of game management in BC!
It was these groups, mostly residing in big, urban areas and knowing very little about the intricate balance of life in the hinterlands, who were responsible for the BC government enacting laws giving so much protection for bears that, that black bears are now completely out of control and, among other things, devestating the moose population.
It's sad, but I personally see no solution, whatsoever, in the immediate future.
 
critter928 said:
They may not have been as prosperous (or they may have I won't argue what I don't know), but they have extended all the way down into Colorado long before us Europeans ever came along.

Eastern moose used to extend in healthy numbers all the way down to Maine before Europeans came.

I would say overall we have taken away far more moose habitat than we have created for them.
Click to expand...

The information below comes from H4831, who has more knowledge of early hunting in BC than most of us. He also has a great library, and is a first class researcher:

The enclosed quote here, is by Dr. Ian McTaggart Cowan, Dean of Graduate Studies, UBC, in the BC Provincial Museum, handbook #11.
This book is the third edition, printed in 1965, but the “forty years,” he refers to would likely be from 1920.

[SIZE=+1]One of the most spectacular events involving large game mammals in British Columbia has been the southward spread of moose in the last 40 years. Prior to 1920 there were virtually no moose south of the Hazelton - Prince George line. They have now moved to the international boundary, and the most dense populations are in this newly invaded territory.[/SIZE]
 
People seem to be attracted to simplistic explanations for complex phenomena.

If anyone thinks that the population of any species is governed primarily by one factor, e.g. predation, they don't know much about biology.

Prey species without predation can have extreme boom/bust cycles, as high population densities can stress the environment, encourage the spread of disease, etc. etc.

Climate change is reality. Damage to Western forests due to insects (mountain pine beetle - http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfp/mountain_pine_beetle/bbbrochure.htm) been increasing remarkably because the cold weather that used to take a toll on the pests hasn't occurred for years. Of course, other insects may also thrive unusually well in these abnormally warm conditions.

The tick issue mentioned is a prime example of how milder winters can imbalance the ecosystem.

Slicing and dicing habitat, penetration of remote areas and subsequent elimination of undisturbed "reserves", and other human intervention may be important. If areas are less intensively logged, the amount of browse available will decline.

The long term health of prey species is promoted by natural predation, which tends to eliminate the weaker, slower, less wary individuals. Human predation can have the opposite effect - trophy hunting tends to target the biggest, healthiest, most successful individuals.

As Critter pointed out, Nature has survived millions of years without our "management". Our interference to increase game species populations achieves only that - it does nothing to increase the fitness of the game species, or the entire ecosystem.

For the vast majority of folks, having a healthy balanced ecosystem is the first priority. Treating wilderness areas as some sort of agricultural resource to raise one game species for the pleasant diversion of hunting is not good stewardship.

The government has to take a balanced approach. Game management has to occur in the context of keeping the ecosystem healthy and diverse.

While legal harvesting may not harm populations, does anyone know what the real levels of poaching and other unlicensed harvest are? With the prevalence of ATVs, and the subsequent easy access to remote areas, the real human harvest may be far larger than envisaged by game managers.

It's all far too complex to think that predator control alone, or primarily, will increase any prey population in a sustainable fashion.

Only by doing the basic biological research, and understanding how ecologies work, can the long term health of our wild areas be maintained. That work is done by - biologists!:)
 
Smoky you raise some good points, but in the areas where I hunt today, the only thing which would allow the game to recover in any significant way, would be a wholesale reduction of predators.

Which is never gonna happen.

The notion that game depts always make sound decisions is flawed; there's far too much political pressure by the Eco's and Enviros to ever get that.
 
BC allows 2 black bears per license per year. I take mine, you too can do your part. New hunters thrive on success. Practice hunting and butchering on blackies. My dog eats free range organic meat until I get a smoker, then the meat will be shared.
 
Newfoundland and Labrador allows you to take four black bears per year, two in the spring and two in the fall. They play a serious role in caribou calf predation, and combined with coyotes, lynx, bald eagles, and the vagaries of life, account for upwards of 80% mortality rates in the first few months of life. This doesn't mean 'destroy all the bears', rather it means that bears need 'management' too.
 
H4831 said:
The BC moose population is way down,Suspected reason for the decline, predation by wolves and bears.
LEH permits have been cut away back for moose, and some areas could be cut even below the proposed number of LEH permits.
In case you've never thought of it that way, black bears are deadly on moose calves.
Click to expand...

I live in Zone 6-30 and the LEH authorizations are way down as compared to 2011. In 2011 there were 145 LEH moose authorizations available. This year there are only 55 for Zone 6-30.

There are also lots of bears, both black and Grizz. And they do raise
HE double hockey sticks with moose calves.
Last fall was the first time I had ever had a bear come to my moose (cow)calling efforts. He stalked in from behind us and I was lucky that I didnt have my touque down over my ears as I heard a rustle in the bush behind and turned to find the bear about 20 yards away. He circled my partner and I and then started getting a vocal. We strongly suggested that he F**K off but he was having none of it so , for the first time in my life, I punched my bear tag.
 
Ol' Smokey said:
People seem to be attracted to simplistic explanations for complex phenomena.

If anyone thinks that the population of any species is governed primarily by one factor, e.g. predation, they don't know much about biology.

Prey species without predation can have extreme boom/bust cycles, as high population densities can stress the environment, encourage the spread of disease, etc. etc.

Climate change is reality. Damage to Western forests due to insects (mountain pine beetle - http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfp/mountain_pine_beetle/bbbrochure.htm) been increasing remarkably because the cold weather that used to take a toll on the pests hasn't occurred for years. Of course, other insects may also thrive unusually well in these abnormally warm conditions.

The tick issue mentioned is a prime example of how milder winters can imbalance the ecosystem.

Slicing and dicing habitat, penetration of remote areas and subsequent elimination of undisturbed "reserves", and other human intervention may be important. If areas are less intensively logged, the amount of browse available will decline.

The long term health of prey species is promoted by natural predation, which tends to eliminate the weaker, slower, less wary individuals. Human predation can have the opposite effect - trophy hunting tends to target the biggest, healthiest, most successful individuals.

As Critter pointed out, Nature has survived millions of years without our "management". Our interference to increase game species populations achieves only that - it does nothing to increase the fitness of the game species, or the entire ecosystem.

For the vast majority of folks, having a healthy balanced ecosystem is the first priority. Treating wilderness areas as some sort of agricultural resource to raise one game species for the pleasant diversion of hunting is not good stewardship.

The government has to take a balanced approach. Game management has to occur in the context of keeping the ecosystem healthy and diverse.

While legal harvesting may not harm populations, does anyone know what the real levels of poaching and other unlicensed harvest are? With the prevalence of ATVs, and the subsequent easy access to remote areas, the real human harvest may be far larger than envisaged by game managers.

It's all far too complex to think that predator control alone, or primarily, will increase any prey population in a sustainable fashion.

Only by doing the basic biological research, and understanding how ecologies work, can the long term health of our wild areas be maintained. That work is done by - biologists!:)
Click to expand...

That's crazy talk. We can kill our way out of any problem, wildlife management, the middle east, drug addiction... line 'em up, I got bullets!:rolleyes:
 
H4831 said:
The BC moose population is way down, in all areas of the province, except the Kootenai's.
This is from the BCWF convention, as stated by the BC environmental department.
Suspected reason for the decline, predation by wolves and bears.
LEH permits have been cut away back for moose, and some areas could be cut even below the proposed number of LEH permits.
In case you've never thought of it that way, black bears are deadly on moose calves.
Click to expand...

Thanks for letting us know Bruce. Ive put in for moose this year...first time I've done it. The way things are going though, I might not even have time to go if I get the LEH! Already missed one bear hunt that some buddies of mine went on. They scored a 450 pound blackie on the island.

I wish I had just one weekend of spare time...I might try Pemberton for a bear before the spring season.
 
CheeseBurger said:
So we can expect a lot of Bear offence threads in the next little while? :D
Click to expand...

Lookylike yer styl'in too.
Load up sum 160's and git yerself a tag or two.
Best bear vittles I ever ate was a big pickles jar of the chit.
Had a jelly effect to it.
Tender and hmmmm hmmmmm good.
The gal asked me how I liked it?
My reply......"got any more?"
I bought a big frenchy bread and sliced it down
the belly.
Loaded it up with onions, pickles, lettuce and this
mystery canned/jarred meat.
I can still taste it.
Bear roast is good too.
Need to find an orchard brewski, not a garbage dump fur.
 
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