Hornady 178 gr Match and 3 powders....

[VLT79]

ok I Hope no one trys to dupe Caramels loads they are WAY over max loads DO NOT USE

There is something wrong here. You typically get the velocities listed with a 175 at around 44 gr. of RL-15. 46.8 is WAY over, and this powder is known not to be temperature stable. Thinking this should be 43.8...

With My Rem. 700 Varmint I'm running 46.2 of RL-15 in Hornady Match brass with the same 178gr bullets as well as the Hornady 180gr BTSP and have not encountered any pressure signs! I also run 45.1 with the Hornady 190gr BTSP.

Max loads will never be the same in every gun...including the one used to test published loads. Always use published starting loads and slowly work up from there.

 

[caramel]

I just go logiquely, if i encounter first pressure signs, i will back down, my rifle seen to be a top performer with very hot loads an accuracy seem to a it's best at the top of the charter... The load used in the nemesis when i tried in my Steyr scout had a slight resistance on extracting so like mentionned by VLT79, results may vary from guns to guns... JP.

 

[Skullboy]

Never a good idea to exceed the published Max load data.........

As well, If I was using a load that exceeded the published Max load I would not post it for others to use.........some will blindly use that data and could be seriously injured......or worse......I would not want that on my conscience.....

Just my $0.02........

 

[caramel]

Never a good idea to exceed the published Max load data.........

As well, If I was using a load that exceeded the published Max load I would not post it for others to use.........some will blindly use that data and could be seriously injured......or worse......I would not want that on my conscience.....

Just my $0.02........

No problem, just consider my last post on my results... The last post... JP.

 

[VLT79]

Never a good idea to exceed the published Max load data.........

As well, If I was using a load that exceeded the published Max load I would not post it for others to use.........some will blindly use that data and could be seriously injured......or worse......I would not want that on my conscience.....

Just my $0.02........

So you are saying that if three companies that published manuals happened to use the exact same bullet, primer, powder, case, C.O.L but used three different rifles to test the results and each had 3 different MAX loads, the one with the lowest powder charge would be safe and the other 2 would actually be over-MAX and should have never been published in the first place?

What happens when the company uses military cases?

Here is Speer's view (Manual 13) on the .308 Win.: "Because the 308 Winchester is a military spin off, surplus cases are readily available. Military cases are often thicker than commercial ones and have less case capacity. Reduce charges developed in commercial cases at least five percent when loading military brass...The commercial IMI cases we used for this testing have a mil-spec capacity and therefore require no reduction..."

I can't remember what .308 Win. cases Caramel is using but mine are Hornady Match and they have one of, if not, the largest capacities of all .308 brass. That extra case volume, compared to the IMI mil-spec brass, means less peak pressure with an equal amount of powder. In order for my loads to match the pressures of the Speer published loads I need to increase the powder charge.

 

[Skullboy]

So you are saying that if three companies that published manuals happened to use the exact same bullet, primer, powder, case, C.O.L but used three different rifles to test the results and each had 3 different MAX loads, the one with the lowest powder charge would be safe and the other 2 would actually be over-MAX and should have never been published in the first place?

What happens when the company uses military cases?

Here is Speer's view (Manual 13) on the .308 Win.: "Because the 308 Winchester is a military spin off, surplus cases are readily available. Military cases are often thicker than commercial ones and have less case capacity. Reduce charges developed in commercial cases at least five percent when loading military brass...The commercial IMI cases we used for this testing have a mil-spec capacity and therefore require no reduction..."

I can't remember what .308 Win. cases Caramel is using by mine are Hornady Match and they have one of, if not, the largest capacities of all .308 brass. That extra case volume, compared to the IMI mil-spec brass, means less peak pressure with an equal amount of powder. In order for my loads to match the pressures of the Speer published loads I need to increase the powder charge.

All I am saying is that people should not exceed the maximum for loads that are published by the manufacturers..........you quoted recommendations from the Speer manual......As I read it they did enough testing to feel confident in making those recommendations......

If people insist on exceeding the maximum recommended load then just keep it to yourself, and the risk to yourself........What may seem safe in YOUR firearm may not be safe in someone else's firearm...........

I could care less what loads you use, but just imagine if someone used one of the over max loads that you posted on the internet and that persons gun blew up in his face........I have seen what an over max load can do........it can turn out pretty ugly........

 

[VLT79]

...I could care less what loads you use, but just imagine if someone used one of the over max loads that you posted on the internet and that persons gun blew up in his face........I have seen what an over max load can do........it can turn out pretty ugly........

I have thought about it lots in the past, until like you, seen it...but...after a few words and dressed wounds...realized that that someone simply grabbed a reloading manual, skipped all the preceeding recommendation and warning pages, and jumped straight to the page containing his cartridge, skipped the starting loads, then procceeded to load the MAX listing because it was deemed "safe" by the publisher (we experienced folk know that isn't actually the case). The rifle probably had a tighter chamber or shorter throat that the one used for the published loads...pressures spiked and Ka-Boom!

Moral of the story is...stupid people will do stupid things...regardless of where they get their info!

 

[Skullboy]

Moral of the story is...stupid people will do stupid things...regardless of where they get their info!

I will have to agree with you there............

 

[BenL]

My suggestion to Caramel would be, in the best interest of those new to reloading, would be to put a clear note in the thread title that these loads are to be read as being specific to his Nemesis rifle ONLY. It may be going too far in the nanny-like for a forum like CGN, but we all learn / start @ zero as well.

 

[warrenb]

All I am saying is that people should not exceed the maximum for loads that are published by the manufacturers.

People should not initially exceed the max published loads without out working up from a safe starting point. Depending on your rifle and components you may end up with a load above published max, but how you get there and the thought you put into how safe the load is, is important.

People that would blindly copy someones load with out using other resources (manuals, experience, extrapolation etc) to base their decision on, probably should not be reloading.

 

[Andy]

All I am saying is that people should not exceed the maximum for loads that are published by the manufacturers..........you quoted recommendations from the Speer manual......As I read it they did enough testing to feel confident in making those recommendations......

If people insist on exceeding the maximum recommended load then just keep it to yourself, and the risk to yourself........What may seem safe in YOUR firearm may not be safe in someone else's firearm...........

I could care less what loads you use, but just imagine if someone used one of the over max loads that you posted on the internet and that persons gun blew up in his face........I have seen what an over max load can do........it can turn out pretty ugly........

People should not initially exceed the max published loads without out working up from a safe starting point. Depending on your rifle and components you may end up with a load above published max but how you get there and the thought you put into how safe the load is that your using is important.

People that would blindly copy someones load with out using other resources (manuals, experience, extrapolation etc) to base their decision on, probably should not be reloading.

I'm in agreement with both - I never suggest going over a published max, but I sometimes do it. I don't often go more than 2-3 grains over a published max (in rifles, i.e. 2-5%), and that's typically only when I am using "high volume" brass, or I can use a longer OAL due to a long throat length.

On the other hand, those who cling to their load manuals can't typically answer: "which load manual?", and when faced with a bullet not listed are confounded on what to do. Then there are those among us who shoot obsolete and wildcat cartridges. Yes there's "Quickload", but the load manual guys hate it.

Guns are not designed to "blow up" when loaded 10%, even 50% above SAAMI specs, so the fear that going 2-5% over a published max will result in that are unfounded.

but I still don't recommend it.....

 

[CanuckWR]

Speed and pressure are very closely related. If manual A (Lyman) says 61,000psi for a 178amax gives a speed of 2660fps and a muzzle energy of 2800 ft/lbs regardless of case capacity for powder A (IMR 4064) one can reliably relate that pressure and speed for other cases with a comparable barrel length (24") as tested for powder A.

QuickLoad forecast:

Cartridge : .308 Win.
Bullet : .308, 178, Hornady BTHP Match 30631
Useable Case Capaci: 45.979 grain H2O = 2.985 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
60K psi max, max fill % <=105

Listed in decending speed order-

Alliant Reloder-17 104.2% fill 46.3g 2622fps
IMR 4895 104.0% 42.6g 2599fps
Hodgdon H414 104.6% 47.2g 2596fps
Hodgdon BL-C2 97.5% 45.1g 2595fps
Ramshot BigGame 105.0% 46.0g 2592fps
Alliant Reloder-15 102.9% 43.6g 2589fps

The reloader 15 data for max load has a muzzle energy of 2660 ft/lbs in a 20" barrel. With a loss of 15 to 20fps per inch difference in barrel length, depeneding on who you ask, it is reasonable. The load here was quoted as 2800fps and 3111 ft/lbs muzzle energy, which is approx 20% higher muzzle energy, and although I am not advocating that chamber pressure is analogous to muzzle energy but conservation of energy says the extra speed has to come from somewhere.

I won't say that it should or will show "signs" of excess pressure however given how subjective pressure signs can be, I will confidently say that it is unsafe. "Lawyer'd down" loadings are created by engineers and firearm experts with the proper equipment to analyze pressure scientifically.

It might not happen today, or tomorrow but metal fatigue will eventually be overcome by the continous exceeding of design pressure rating. Your mileage may vary, but at least think critically about walking WAY over listed max loadings or talk to someone who has blown up a gun and ask how enjoyable of an experience it was because you may never get a warning before it happens to you.

My $0.02......

 

[VLT79]

Speed and pressure are very closely related. If manual A (Lyman) says 61,000psi for a 178amax gives a speed of 2660fps and a muzzle energy of 2800 ft/lbs regardless of case capacity for powder A (IMR 4064) one can reliably relate that pressure and speed for other cases with a comparable barrel length (24") as tested for powder A.

QuickLoad forecast:

Cartridge : .308 Win.
Bullet : .308, 178, Hornady BTHP Match 30631
Useable Case Capaci: 45.979 grain H2O = 2.985 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
60K psi max, max fill % <=105

Listed in decending speed order-

Alliant Reloder-17 104.2% fill 46.3g 2622fps
IMR 4895 104.0% 42.6g 2599fps
Hodgdon H414 104.6% 47.2g 2596fps
Hodgdon BL-C2 97.5% 45.1g 2595fps
Ramshot BigGame 105.0% 46.0g 2592fps
Alliant Reloder-15 102.9% 43.6g 2589fps

The reloader 15 data for max load has a muzzle energy of 2660 ft/lbs in a 20" barrel. With a loss of 15 to 20fps per inch difference in barrel length, depeneding on who you ask, it is reasonable. The load here was quoted as 2800fps and 3111 ft/lbs muzzle energy, which is approx 20% higher muzzle energy, and although I am not advocating that chamber pressure is analogous to muzzle energy but conservation of energy says the extra speed has to come from somewhere....

My $0.02......

I was never good at math and am probably misunderstanding something...but does what you wrote mean that a 178gr Amax loaded to 61 000psi with powder A in a 308 Win will have the same velocity as the same bullet loaded to the same pressure with powder A fired from a 300 Win Mag with the same barrel length???

If one barrel is tight and the other is loose wouldn't there be an increase in velocity because of reduced friction?

 

[CanuckWR]

I was never good at math and am probably misunderstanding something...but does what you wrote mean that a 178gr Amax loaded to 61 000psi with powder A in a 308 Win will have the same velocity as the same bullet loaded to the same pressure with powder A fired from a 300 Win Mag with the same barrel length???

If one barrel is tight and the other is loose wouldn't there be an increase in velocity because of reduced friction?

Quoted from rifleman's journal. Way better at explaining than me.

In order to reach a certain chamber pressure, you will use more powder in a higher volume case than in a lower volume case. Although peak pressure will be the same when the charges are properly adjusted to each case's volume, the higher powder charge in the light case will generate more gas which keeps working for you all the way down the barrel and ultimately will deliver a bit more MV at the same peak chamber pressure.


Essential reading on the subject.
http://riflemansjournal.########.ca/2011/02/cartridges-long-range-reloading-safety.html

 

[VLT79]

Quoted from rifleman's journal. Way better at explaining than me.

In order to reach a certain chamber pressure, you will use more powder in a higher volume case than in a lower volume case. Although peak pressure will be the same when the charges are properly adjusted to each case's volume, the higher powder charge in the light case will generate more gas which keeps working for you all the way down the barrel and ultimately will deliver a bit more MV at the same peak chamber pressure.


Essential reading on the subject.
http://riflemansjournal.########.ca/2011/02/cartridges-long-range-reloading-safety.html

Alright, that's what I thought...it is the opposite of what you said. An increase in velocity is made possible by the extra volume of gas from the increased powder charge even if peak pressures are the same. That also explains why in certain situations some powders will give you higher velocities and lower peak pressures that others will.

 

[CanuckWR]

Alright, that's what I thought...it is the opposite of what you said. An increase in velocity is made possible by the extra volume of gas from the increased powder charge even if peak pressures are the same. That also explains why in certain situations some powders will give you higher velocities and lower peak pressures that others will.

According to quickload again. To drop case capacity by 2gn and adjust powder to give the same peak pressure with that same powder there is a change of -19fps for the lower case capacity. <1% change in velocity to make a rough jump from milsurp to commercial brass, however there was a predicted 39fps and 5500psi peak pressure increase if powder charges were kept the same.