The 7.62X39 mm cartridge - good or?

Andurp said:
You are the other guy, but I should apologize, as the winky thing wasn't apparent to me. Sorry bro, didn't mean to derail or anything.

Have a beer on me!
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Hey, we all make little mistakes, and if we own up to it and move on, it's all good :)

I've seen charts posted sometimes that show the "drop" of a round (frequently I've seen it used to compare the .308, the 30-06 and the .300 magnum). It would be cool to see such a chart with the 7.62x39mm to get an idea.

Mind you, I've been thinking about this - I don't have the best of eye-sight, so I probably wouldn't shoot anything at 500 yards anyway!
 
Ancalagon said:
Hey, we all make little mistakes, and if we own up to it and move on, it's all good :)

I've seen charts posted sometimes that show the "drop" of a round (frequently I've seen it used to compare the .308, the 30-06 and the .300 magnum). It would be cool to see such a chart with the 7.62x39mm to get an idea.

Mind you, I've been thinking about this - I don't have the best of eye-sight, so I probably wouldn't shoot anything at 500 yards anyway!
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If you have any of the modern reloading programs they can all do this, so I will just for you if you wait long enough. I wouldnt get too excited though as its piss poor performance past 100 yards with factory ammo is very discouraging.
 
Not great I'm afraid;
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.311 125 grain sierra spt, 2500 fps, zeroed at 100 yards, scope 1 and a half inches above bore.
 
I can't see myself trying to shoot past 200 yrds with my SKS. Mostly 100 yrds or less. For shooting longer distances, you use a rifle and ammo intended for longer distances.
 
It's possible to go out to 300 or so with 7.62x39, and there's guys on YouTube doing fairly well with 858's out to 500, if I recall correctly. With practice I'm sure you can "rainbow" your rounds on target reasonably consistently. I've gone out to 200 with my 858 and one of my SKS's and I wasn't disappointed.
 
7.62x39 is an OK deer round out to about 125-150 yards. After that, the velocity drops off enough that a one-shot kill on deer may (note I said MAY) be problematic.

The hunting ammo out there is accurate enough to use on deer as well (can't say the same for the surplus stuff, but hey, you don't hunt with FMJ ammo anyway).

An SKS is a good-enough deer rifle at short (125-150 yds) range with hunting ammo. A bolt-action rifle chambered for the 7.62x39 round is most likely more accurate than any SKS.
 
I've been really torn on this subject these days. I have read a lot of articles about 7.62x39 and if it is any 'good' over the past few weeks. I will relate to you all what I have come to:

On the first hand, you have the .223 vs 7.62 debate. I like to think that each one has 1 thing going for it; 223 has flat trajectory, while the 7.62 has more impact energy. People talk about the 223 as a varmit calibre, while they talk about close range deer for the 7.62. Clearly the .311 round has more weight to it.

Then you have the 7.62 vs 30-30 debate. I think what fuels this are two things; first you have a 100 year old 30-30 cartridge. North Americans have been shooting this for a LOOOONG time. They know this cartridge. It works. Plain and simple. Then you get a 'foreign' 7.62 round. This is the second issue. Because Americans didn't invent this cartridge, they don't like it. I believe there's a little bit of racism against this 'russian' round. Because of these issues handloading has a huge following for the 30-30, and there is little info and not a lot of components for the 7.62. American bullet manufacturers (Hondady/Sierra) also play into this a little by not creating as many different bullets for this round. I have also found very little experimentation with this round when compared to other rounds. I also personally believe the 30-30 has more 'potential' then the 7.62 allowing for a vast variety of different weights of bullets and types of poweder, while the 7.62 hasn't seen as much of its 'potential' utilized in handloading texts.

Ultimately, I think the 7.62 still has a long way to go. BUT, like the BETAMAX vs VHS video tape, what works better isn't always what ends up being used. The US military went with a varmit cartridge to satisfy a deployment issue (weight/heat/jungle combat) in Vietnam, and are now paying for their decision in Iraq (Long range/flat terrain).

I believe there is a place for an intermediate round in a military's arsenal. I also believe there is a place for a varmit cartridge as well as a long range cartridge (read: 223 and 308). The russians learned this a long time ago. The US is now fumbling around learning this leasson with the 6.8 SPC.

A lot of you might not agree with what I have said above. And that's perfectly fine. All I can do is relate my opinions and maybe get you all thinking and reading. My final conclusion is that the 7.62x39 is a perfectly legitimate caliber and I will be giving it some serious weight on my next purchase.

Addition: I think what I am ultimately saying is, I would LOVE an AR-15 in 6.8 SPC for $200. Unfortunatley what we have is an SKS in 7.62x39 for $200. We can't change what the SKS is chambered for so an SKS in 7.62x39 is perfectly acceptable to me for the low low price of $200.
 
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A lot of the flak 7.62x39 gets is due to the rifles it's chambered in and overall quality of com-bloc surplus ammo.

I can hit an 8" plate at 300m with boring regularity with my XCR, 1.5-5x scope, and Czech ball ammo. It's good enough for me, and I can shoot twice as much for the same cost as compared to .223.
 
Thank you very much again for all the info, this is very informative. Those graphs are pretty helpful - seeing the amount of drop, or how 50% of the energy is lost around 250 yards, that's telling. I wonder how the drop compares to the .308 or the 30-30?

The US military went with a varmit cartridge to satisfy a deployment issue (weight/heat/jungle combat) in Vietnam, and are now paying for their decision in Iraq (Long range/flat terrain).
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I'm no military expert, but I do agree that they "went too far". A round intermediate between the 7.62 NATO and the 5.56 NATO is probably what will happen, although it might take many more years before it becomes a reality.
 
The Russian military equipment philosophy tends towards specialization, in the case of the 7.62x39 round, you have a round and firearms that are effective at their intended role, and any shortcomings are to be compensated for by other systems.

It's probably best to think of it in those terms in our civilian sporting context.
 
Ancalagon said:
I wonder how the drop compares to the .308 or the 30-30?
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Comparing the 7.62x39 to a .308 isn't very realistic as the .308 would be considered a higher powered round (similar to the 7.62x54 Russian). I would be very interested to see a side by side comparison of the 30-30 and 7.62x39 drop rate thought. Sierra's handloading manual states the 30-30 brass case is actually a little 'weak' when seating bullets and crimping leading to squishing the case neck which would give a little bit of an edge to the 7.62 as far as being more ruggid goes.

I think, at the end of the day, the 6.8 spc would end up being the USA's match for the 7.62x39. I also think the 6.8 spc is superior to the 7.62 as it was developed using today's technology. Unfortunately it also carries with it a higher price tag as well as being used in a weapons system that is 5 times the price.

None of this takes into account of the simplicity of the weapons system. Side by side, I would take the 6.8 hands down. Unfortunately a good AR-15 costs $1000 and requires diligent cleaning while a CZ-858 costs $700. At $200, the SKS cannot be overlooked for sheer affordability using an 'okay' round in a firearm that has a reputation of not jamming during serious battle use.

If money isn't an issue, I would look at the 6.8 spc for 100-400 yard work. I would also look at the 30-30 as a contender. Can the 7.62x39 still hold it's own? I think so. For now.
 
Andurp said:
It's possible to go out to 300 or so with 7.62x39, and there's guys on YouTube doing fairly well with 858's out to 500, if I recall correctly. With practice I'm sure you can "rainbow" your rounds on target reasonably consistently. I've gone out to 200 with my 858 and one of my SKS's and I wasn't disappointed.
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Oh dont get me wrong, with factory in my CZ527 which is a very short barrel it was hitting pretty well at 600 yards. we had a range day at Kingsbury near Brum so I wheeled it out alongside everyone else faux snipers. Yes with irons or scope it was a hold over job but neither were meant for it. It did group in the bull at 600 but I would be reluctant taking on deer over 100 rards to be honest.
 
Papaclaude said:
Get 'em quick before the City bans ammo sales and possession.
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I have to say, I'm concerned that some jackass "gangsta" who can't get his hands on a blackmarket pistol finds out about the SKS, gets his buddies all excited about it ("It's a retro AK, it's cool" or some idiocy) and then goes and do something really stupid (and lethal) with it. I don't think we're going to get a ban now... but a few more spectacular incidents and I won't be so confident.

edit: but this is really drifting off topic
 
Ancalagon said:
I have to say, I'm concerned that some jackass "gangsta" who can't get his hands on a blackmarket pistol finds out about the SKS, gets his buddies all excited about it ("It's a retro AK, it's cool" or some idiocy) and then goes and do something really stupid (and lethal) with it. I don't think we're going to get a ban now... but a few more spectacular incidents and I won't be so confident.

edit: but this is really drifting off topic
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Gangsters like their concealable weapons. I wouldn't be too worried about it.
 
Ancalagon said:
Thank you very much again for all the info, this is very informative. Those graphs are pretty helpful - seeing the amount of drop, or how 50% of the energy is lost around 250 yards, that's telling. I wonder how the drop compares to the .308 or the 30-30?



I'm no military expert, but I do agree that they "went too far". A round intermediate between the 7.62 NATO and the 5.56 NATO is probably what will happen, although it might take many more years before it becomes a reality.
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Here's some 110 grain .308 graphs for ya... sorry they're all Hornady.. That's just the ammo I usually use.... If you want another type of bullet let me know.

308vel.jpg


308ene.jpg


308path.jpg
 
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