Saiga 12 vs M4
- Thread starter Teapot
- Start date
canucklehead
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
I'm guessing this is purely academic, since we'll never see a Saiga 12 in Canada...
the saigas are cumbersome ..
theres no bolt hold open on last round, and you have to have the bolt open to load a new mag. That means at every mag change you have to manually lock the bolt open. its a #### of a thing.
you can do some major modifications to the shotgun to make it operate in a more sensible way. such as mag well adaptors ( means the mags need editing irreversably also ) .. cuting at the BCG, installing prototype bolt hold open pieces from one garage gunsmith or another..
Basically the Saiga12 in its natural form is a pig and not worth the money.. if you can get a Tromix or PFI modified Saiga then it will be a much much much better firearm.
Mag-fed is only nice when you can drop a new mag in on a closed bolt.
The Molot 12's ( RPK receiver ) however, do it right.
theres no bolt hold open on last round, and you have to have the bolt open to load a new mag. That means at every mag change you have to manually lock the bolt open. its a #### of a thing.
you can do some major modifications to the shotgun to make it operate in a more sensible way. such as mag well adaptors ( means the mags need editing irreversably also ) .. cuting at the BCG, installing prototype bolt hold open pieces from one garage gunsmith or another..
Basically the Saiga12 in its natural form is a pig and not worth the money.. if you can get a Tromix or PFI modified Saiga then it will be a much much much better firearm.
Mag-fed is only nice when you can drop a new mag in on a closed bolt.
The Molot 12's ( RPK receiver ) however, do it right.
Yes the Vepr-12 Molot version 02 seems to be the cats' meow. Reliability, bolt to the rear when empty and easy magazine changes. The Turkish semi-automatic shotgun designed itself out of the Canadian market when it made it look like an AR-15. The AK action of the Vepr or Saiga make it a prohib here unlike rifles on the Canadian market which have Kalashnikov internals and are ok to own. Bureaucratic insanity? You bet.
I ask the question simply from curiosity. Many like box magazines as opposed to tube. Tubular is reliable and I prefer pump as muscle power can overcome the dirt and debris that cause stoppages.
However, a shotgun based on the Kalashnikov design would certainly be a boon to people living in the far north especially our First Nations communities. Why the federal police would deny such people reliability in a firearm when it could mean life or death is beyond my ability to answer.
Fenix.NZ, your perspective is interesting and borne from the freedom to take it or leave it. However, many successful rifles do not keep the bolt to the rear when the magazine is empty. Having to rack the bolt to the rear and press a device like a 10/22 and then load another mag is a major flaw in the design. That alone would make me tend toward an M4 or a Turkish semi-auto.
I ask the question simply from curiosity. Many like box magazines as opposed to tube. Tubular is reliable and I prefer pump as muscle power can overcome the dirt and debris that cause stoppages.
However, a shotgun based on the Kalashnikov design would certainly be a boon to people living in the far north especially our First Nations communities. Why the federal police would deny such people reliability in a firearm when it could mean life or death is beyond my ability to answer.
Fenix.NZ, your perspective is interesting and borne from the freedom to take it or leave it. However, many successful rifles do not keep the bolt to the rear when the magazine is empty. Having to rack the bolt to the rear and press a device like a 10/22 and then load another mag is a major flaw in the design. That alone would make me tend toward an M4 or a Turkish semi-auto.
I'd take a professionally reworked Saiga or Vepr 12 any day of the week, as long as we're talking about zombie or competition shooting. Box mag feed is just so much better not only for reloading the gun quickly under stress but also in simplifying ammo carriage.
I also prefer the iron sights you can get on the Saiga or Vepr to those of the M4 and being able to use a folding stock is a nice bonus.
I also prefer the iron sights you can get on the Saiga or Vepr to those of the M4 and being able to use a folding stock is a nice bonus.
10/22's dont require an open bolt.
i realise that many sucessful designs dont hold the bolt open. including the AK itself, but what i think you missed in my post is that to insert a loaded magazine into a Saiga12 requires the bolt to be OPEN .. which means that when you are empty, you not only have to remove the mag, you also have to manually open and lock the bolt in place, before you can seat a new mag..
Lefty's dont have much issue with this, since the charging handle is on their offhand side, but for a righty its a complete PITA
I'm a lefty. I understood what you meant. The 10/22 bolt has to be held back while one fumbles with the little bolt catch to keep the bolt in place. Not being able to load a Saiga 12 with the bolt forward is a retarded design.
