7.62 x 25 JHP.
- Thread starter Bigred613
- Start date
No valid reason for other than JHP in handguns
I' believe it's the opposite: for handguns, there is really no more valid reason for other than JHP to exist.
Remember that the FMJ is an invention imposed on the military by international conventions way back. The intention was to reduce the severity of (rifle/MG) wounds in wars and increase the chances of survival, thereby increasing the injured/killed ratio. As military forces traditionally take care of their wounded, this increases the burden, more resources to that effect, more survivors to go home and more report the horrors of war: all factors that normally can reduce ultimate duration and casualties in armed conflicts.
As a pistol is basically a short range defence firearm (refer to the excellent writings of Jeff Cooper), there is actually no valid reason for a FMJ projectile in a handgun, even in the military if you ask me. If a soldier is down to using his handgun, he absolutely needs to stop his assailant, not just poke him. Switching to JHP allows the stopping power of any pistol to be SIGNIFICANTLY increased, I would even say doubled. Instead of the never ending quest for bigger and more powerful handguns which are increasingly scarier and more difficult to shoot and a hassle to pack, a simple 30$ investment on good quality .45 ACP, 9mm or even a .380 Auto ammo box will make any reasonable pistol work wonders.
I hope never, ever to have to use a pistol in the context of self defence, but should it happen, I hope for the three of us (me, the by-standers and the SOB) that JHP ammo is in the magazine.
The only possible argument for FMJ ammo is better penetrating power, which IMO is only marginal and can be more than compensated by loading a high velocity round. There is a well documented case of a officer arriving at scene with his freshly issued .357SIG pistol terminating (with one shot) a multiple police officer encounter with a villain inside a truck cab, that had been lasting many, many rounds of ineffective shots. Such is what a high speed .355 (9mm) bullet can do.
In fact, the Russians adopted the round for their TT-30/33 pistol after WW-I, having experienced difficulties in penetrating the thick German winter coats with their 1000 f/sec Nagant revolver in same calibre. The extra speed (1375 fps) resolved this issue, at the expense of even less stopping power on softer targets. Unless the shooter is calm and delivers a well placed head shot, stopping with one bullet a determined assailant with FMJ 7,62x25mm ammo is very difficult. The whole 8 rd mag may not suffice.
Attached is a picture of a Winchester 9mm +P 124gr Personal Protection round (PDX1) that I recovered on the floor recently after mercy killing a sick cat. To my amazement, the bullet bounced back from the springy back stop board behind the cat after going completely through (once only, of course). The cat was motionless in less than 3 seconds and managed less that 2 ft away from where he was hit. Conclusions: for the bullet to bounce back in my direction OVER the cat, its residual energy must have been next to nil. Evidence is that the residual rotational energy made this unusual occurrence possible. The fact that the cat died so quickly, with almost no blood spilled is evidence that most if not all the energy was transferred where needed. This is quite a change from the last stray cat I had to shoot, with an FMJ round that time, who ran out of gas (blood) 75 ft. from the impact location.
Of the initial 124 gr of the bullet, the three recovered pieces total 120,4 gr. (missing one petal). The performance of JHP ammo is undeniable and it has been adopted almost universally by police forces.
JHP ammo is difficult to find, so reloading is the pretty much the only solution. Got all my JHP from Mystic Precision. Be patient, they are long to arrive for some calibres when not in stock. For rifle ammo, the Hornady A-Max is next to none.
For 7,62x25mm, I use the Hornady # 3500 - 90gr XTP which is pretty close to the original 86gr bullet weight. This I feed my Hungarian made Pisztoly 48.M (a post-war version of the TT-33) with. With 5 gr of Bullseye, I clock near 1370 fps. I also have a vz52 pistol (aka CZ-52) which is a much stronger action (roller block) capable of handling the Czech SMG hotter. I have yet to work up a load for the vz52 pistol. The last words in Hornady's reloading manual page 757 titillate my imagination: "With the Hornady 30 caliber 90 gr XTP, the 7,62 Tokarev has some usefulness in the field..." I should thick so as reloading tables show that 1700 fps is at hand (that's 577 ft-pd, akin to 357 Mag and more than 357SIG).
Keep on reloading !!!
Gefreiter
BB, how many Beewers in your garage? Mine packs a 325Xit, 530i, 1987 M6 (four wheelers) and a K75 alongside a R100R Mystic for sale.
I' believe it's the opposite: for handguns, there is really no more valid reason for other than JHP to exist.
Remember that the FMJ is an invention imposed on the military by international conventions way back. The intention was to reduce the severity of (rifle/MG) wounds in wars and increase the chances of survival, thereby increasing the injured/killed ratio. As military forces traditionally take care of their wounded, this increases the burden, more resources to that effect, more survivors to go home and more report the horrors of war: all factors that normally can reduce ultimate duration and casualties in armed conflicts.
As a pistol is basically a short range defence firearm (refer to the excellent writings of Jeff Cooper), there is actually no valid reason for a FMJ projectile in a handgun, even in the military if you ask me. If a soldier is down to using his handgun, he absolutely needs to stop his assailant, not just poke him. Switching to JHP allows the stopping power of any pistol to be SIGNIFICANTLY increased, I would even say doubled. Instead of the never ending quest for bigger and more powerful handguns which are increasingly scarier and more difficult to shoot and a hassle to pack, a simple 30$ investment on good quality .45 ACP, 9mm or even a .380 Auto ammo box will make any reasonable pistol work wonders.
I hope never, ever to have to use a pistol in the context of self defence, but should it happen, I hope for the three of us (me, the by-standers and the SOB) that JHP ammo is in the magazine.
The only possible argument for FMJ ammo is better penetrating power, which IMO is only marginal and can be more than compensated by loading a high velocity round. There is a well documented case of a officer arriving at scene with his freshly issued .357SIG pistol terminating (with one shot) a multiple police officer encounter with a villain inside a truck cab, that had been lasting many, many rounds of ineffective shots. Such is what a high speed .355 (9mm) bullet can do.
In fact, the Russians adopted the round for their TT-30/33 pistol after WW-I, having experienced difficulties in penetrating the thick German winter coats with their 1000 f/sec Nagant revolver in same calibre. The extra speed (1375 fps) resolved this issue, at the expense of even less stopping power on softer targets. Unless the shooter is calm and delivers a well placed head shot, stopping with one bullet a determined assailant with FMJ 7,62x25mm ammo is very difficult. The whole 8 rd mag may not suffice.
Attached is a picture of a Winchester 9mm +P 124gr Personal Protection round (PDX1) that I recovered on the floor recently after mercy killing a sick cat. To my amazement, the bullet bounced back from the springy back stop board behind the cat after going completely through (once only, of course). The cat was motionless in less than 3 seconds and managed less that 2 ft away from where he was hit. Conclusions: for the bullet to bounce back in my direction OVER the cat, its residual energy must have been next to nil. Evidence is that the residual rotational energy made this unusual occurrence possible. The fact that the cat died so quickly, with almost no blood spilled is evidence that most if not all the energy was transferred where needed. This is quite a change from the last stray cat I had to shoot, with an FMJ round that time, who ran out of gas (blood) 75 ft. from the impact location.
Of the initial 124 gr of the bullet, the three recovered pieces total 120,4 gr. (missing one petal). The performance of JHP ammo is undeniable and it has been adopted almost universally by police forces.
JHP ammo is difficult to find, so reloading is the pretty much the only solution. Got all my JHP from Mystic Precision. Be patient, they are long to arrive for some calibres when not in stock. For rifle ammo, the Hornady A-Max is next to none.
For 7,62x25mm, I use the Hornady # 3500 - 90gr XTP which is pretty close to the original 86gr bullet weight. This I feed my Hungarian made Pisztoly 48.M (a post-war version of the TT-33) with. With 5 gr of Bullseye, I clock near 1370 fps. I also have a vz52 pistol (aka CZ-52) which is a much stronger action (roller block) capable of handling the Czech SMG hotter. I have yet to work up a load for the vz52 pistol. The last words in Hornady's reloading manual page 757 titillate my imagination: "With the Hornady 30 caliber 90 gr XTP, the 7,62 Tokarev has some usefulness in the field..." I should thick so as reloading tables show that 1700 fps is at hand (that's 577 ft-pd, akin to 357 Mag and more than 357SIG).
Keep on reloading !!!
Gefreiter
BB, how many Beewers in your garage? Mine packs a 325Xit, 530i, 1987 M6 (four wheelers) and a K75 alongside a R100R Mystic for sale.
You took the cats to the range to euthanise them? Oops, I forgot, you must have used that non-restricted 9mm carbine
I knew I was going to get a remark like this. You must live in a city... With an ac44 P.38. One more notch on the grip...
Since the neighbour had seen me take a walk with the dog 30 minutes before, he told me last night he concluded I had finally done the dog. (He hates dogs...)
I will never do Eliot, unless he is prohibitively ($) sick (which the cat was not). For I still believe a 9mm JHP is better than the terror my old Strudel (German Sheppard) felt when I finally walk her in to the vet for chemical euthanasia 5 years ago. Strudel quite evidently knew what was in store and we had to give her a sedative 20 minutes prior to the final pentothal injection. I held her in my arms as she slipped away. Never again: A delicious meal and a fat 124gr while the dog looks away licking his still dripping lips.
Like some other CGNer wrote, "if there is a heaven for dogs, I want to go there when I die."
Gefreiter
Since the neighbour had seen me take a walk with the dog 30 minutes before, he told me last night he concluded I had finally done the dog. (He hates dogs...)
I will never do Eliot, unless he is prohibitively ($) sick (which the cat was not). For I still believe a 9mm JHP is better than the terror my old Strudel (German Sheppard) felt when I finally walk her in to the vet for chemical euthanasia 5 years ago. Strudel quite evidently knew what was in store and we had to give her a sedative 20 minutes prior to the final pentothal injection. I held her in my arms as she slipped away. Never again: A delicious meal and a fat 124gr while the dog looks away licking his still dripping lips.
Like some other CGNer wrote, "if there is a heaven for dogs, I want to go there when I die."
Gefreiter
You took the cats to the range to euthanise them? Oops, I forgot, you must have used that non-restricted 9mm carbine
A rifle is scarier...
I was more afraid of a remark by a soft heart-ed member of the SPCA. You must live in a crowded city, pour you... With an ac44 P.38. One more notch on the grip...
Since the neighbour had seen me take a walk with the dog 30 minutes before, he told me last night he concluded I had finally done the dog. (He hates dogs...) So for any tempted animal frienda out there, here's my thing:
I will never do Eliot, unless he is prohibitively ($) sick (which the cat was not). For I still believe a 9mm JHP is better than the terror my old Strudel (German Sheppard) felt when I finally walk her in to the vet for chemical euthanasia some 5 years ago. Strudel quite evidently knew what was in store and we had to give her a sedative 20 minutes prior to the final pentothal injection. I held her in my arms as she slipped away. Never again: A delicious meal and a fat 124gr while the dog looks away, licking his still dripping lips.
Like some other CGNer wrote, "if there is a heaven for dogs, I want to go there when I die."
Gefreiter
I was more afraid of a remark by a soft heart-ed member of the SPCA
. You must live in a crowded city, pour you... With an ac44 P.38. One more notch on the grip...Since the neighbour had seen me take a walk with the dog 30 minutes before, he told me last night he concluded I had finally done the dog. (He hates dogs...) So for any tempted animal frienda out there, here's my thing:
I will never do Eliot, unless he is prohibitively ($) sick (which the cat was not). For I still believe a 9mm JHP is better than the terror my old Strudel (German Sheppard) felt when I finally walk her in to the vet for chemical euthanasia some 5 years ago. Strudel quite evidently knew what was in store and we had to give her a sedative 20 minutes prior to the final pentothal injection. I held her in my arms as she slipped away. Never again: A delicious meal and a fat 124gr while the dog looks away, licking his still dripping lips.
Like some other CGNer wrote, "if there is a heaven for dogs, I want to go there when I die."
Gefreiter
You took the cats to the range to euthanise them? Oops, I forgot, you must have used that non-restricted 9mm carbine
